Disgusting!!!!!

[Shrek]

Specifically what catastrophes are you referring to bbrown ?

 

[Shrek]

The answer to how the clients didn't catch on is that the client only saw their hunt and had nothing to detect a pattern from. They got a lame cat , explained by saying it was from running from the dogs or some other speculative excuse.

 

[SHTF]

SHTF ! I have a pretty good handle on the circle of life and it is my wish for humans to replace all apex predators. It can't be done is because of a lack of political will not for lack of physical ability. If we made the choice to eliminate the lions , grizzlies , wolves , and black bears we could step in and fill their function for human benefit. Smaller predators would backfill all the smaller prey niches and humans would fill all the large animal management goals. Since the beginning of the 20th century that has been the norm for most of the country with the exception of black bears. All the studies about the over population of elk and it's consequences came from studies done on the unmanaged herds in Yellowstone park. Outside of the parks there were no major problems that couldn't be traced to political decisions.

Aww Shrek....... I really wanted to help you out here but Im definitely not an expert on the subject but Ive watched enough studies and Animal planet enough to know that without the Bears, lions, wolves there is no way humans could keep up with the populations of prey out there in the world. I challenge you to go read up about the populations of wild pigs who are overrunning the south right now. This really would be as close as youll find to a scenario of you humans trying to manage a out of control population of prey and look how miserably we are failing at it. Many States including your own if Im not mistaken have a year round open season on them and in many state you can kill as many as you can take out. This still hasnt stopped the Pigs from breeding out of control. Heck even the elk populations where getting out of control before they introduced the Wolves back into the Lower 48s now the Wolves are keeping those populations in check or sometimes killing to many of the elk as they will take out the baby elk before going for the grown adults.
I wish I could agree with you on your theory of game management but unfortunately it wouldnt work. Much respect though man. Keep on keeping on =-)

 

[SHTF]

Sam I agree going out into the wilds and knowing your sometimes not at the top of the food chain is a thrill and can keep the hunt fun. Heck we have even had hunters post here on rokslide about cougars stalking the hunter or the same game the hunter is hunting. Those make some of the best stories on here.

 

[bbrown]

The list would be long but the BIGGEST in my mind would be the amount of human involvement - compounded by the fact that it would be more government involvement.

Don't we already have way too much government involvement.

It simple science from grasses to bugs to birds to mammals and even the biggest predators. They all have a role and if any one is removed they all suffer - look at history it has happened over and over again. Human involvement has created or caused more ecological problems that anything else over the recent history and the worst part is usually our human solutions only cause more problems.

 

[bbrown]

Shrek I got to ask because you are a regular around here that usually has good things to add to discussions - hell I have even learned a few things from you.
Are you serious about this "wish"? What possible good could come out of not having any natural predators around?

 

[Shrek]

Actually SHTF I live in the south and hunt hogs and can tell you for certain that the hog problem is coming under control well without all the wolves and lions. We have also managed deer without them just fine also. It's a flat out lie that we couldn't keep up with the herds. Lower barriers and extend the seasons and you can get it done. Free otc earn a bull cow tags for whatever area has too many and allow motorized access and the herds will be reduced.
The culture to hunt the hogs took a few years to develop ut now the guys are hunting them year round and thinning them out. The places with hog problems are mostly places that will not allow unrestricted hunting. If the farmers in texas were serios about thinning the hogs they would give free access to everyone and advertise for people to c8me and hunt.

 

[bbrown]

The feral pigs are yet another perfect example of human involvement with a terrible outcome.

 

[Shrek]

Bbrown , there would be a lot more and much less expensive tags and more ranchers would be glad to to give access to their land for hunting . Hunter numbers would grow because of the lowered cost and improved success rates. There are a lot of real positive outcomes for hunters if the competition for game is reduced. You may sneer at bubba hunting from his truck and shooting an elk or mule deer but if he is successful then he keeps buying licenses and hunting but if the game is drastically reduced he eventually quits and then doesn't care what happens to hunting rights. His family doesn't learn to eat game and don't grow up to support hunting even though they don't personally hunt. They not only don't hunt they don't become familiar with it or eat game because dad was a lazy truck hunter and quit years ago when he couldn't kill anything anymore. There are serious long term consequences to reduced opportunity from predators.

 

[In God We Trust]

I think wounding an animal and then turning it loose to suffer and shoot it later under the banner of hunting is disgusting. I hope they throw the book at these pieces of garbage. Eradicating all natural predators and leaving the job to just hunters is insane. I agree we need to manage predator numbers including wolves and grizzlies through hunting. As we all know the North American conservation model is the most successful model in the world. Notice conservation not eradication, predators have a place in an ecosystem as well as prey populations do. If we leave predators unchecked like the wolves were and grizzlies are then prey numbers decline and we have problems. If the states do their jobs of controlling prey and predator numbers alike then everyone benefits. The reason there isn't a political will to eradicate predator populations is because it the majority of hunters and joe blow public are against it. There is political pressure to control predator populations and that is why we can now hunt wolves and grizzly tags will probably become available in Montana and Wyoming in the not so far future.

 

[Shrek]

SHTF said the elk were getting over populated and hunters couldn't keep up right ? Did the G&F issue otc cow tags for January wintering grounds hunting for free ? If so I didn't know about them. There are all kinds of political reasons we mismanage game but we can do it easily if we get over our political hangups to real aggressive take of game when needed.

 

[Shrek]

Another funny one. Guys who support predators but then complain when someone is scouting game on the winter grounds and is getting too close and stressing the deer in their opinion. What do you think the lions and wolves are doing 24 /7/365 ?

 

[DaveC]

...it is my wish for humans to replace all apex predators. It can't be done is because of a lack of political will not for lack of physical ability. If we made the choice to eliminate the lions , grizzlies , wolves , and black bears we could step in and fill their function for human benefit.

I would submit that there is a lot of historical evidence that this is not the case. Compound 1080 and the fact that coyotes didn't exist east of the Mississippi come to mind. Human knowledge is not up to the task, and the assertion that it is is both factually and morally problematic.

 

[Shrek]

Bbrown , you say human involvement causes problems but I say human involvement causes changes and some are unanticipated and adjustments have to be made. ? You say hogs are a problem but from where I sit I see an evolving situation and the birth of a new industry. We now have year round hunting 24hours a day using hounds , traps , night vision , ect and an entire industry built to support it . Hog numbers are coming down and management is starting to be effective. Not a disaster in the long run at all.

 

[bbrown]

Less or even no competing predators will not equal more hunter opportunity. The only outcome would be over population, resource distruction and eventually disease and die off. Mother Nature has ways of taking care of its self. It's only when we get involved that cause disruption of the natural course. We can't change the past and our system for conversation is a good compromise of man and nature.
Hell there is a surplus of elk just up the hill for me in RMNP but instead of doing a special lottery for tags (even with a premium cost) the govt instead choose to hire sharp shooters and the meat went to waste. Man and especially our government is not up to the task.

All in all I think it is a pretty selfish wish without any real merit but hey that's just my opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

[wyodan]

Wasn't human involvment what happened to the buffalo?

 

[Bonedalien]

i simply cant imagine going into the mountains knowing i will NOT see a bear,or know for sure that there is NOT a lion watching me right now.The feeling you get seeing a big fresh bear track in the trail ,or finding a lion track in your own track coming back is pure magic! It is something i hope might happen everytime i go out!
Eliminate all the predators? The Rockies dont deserve to be neutered like that.

 

[Shrek]

Bbrown , what you sight is a political problem , not an inability to properly manage the elk RMNP , but lack of political will to do so effectively. They could have issued tags and hunters would have lined up to hunt the abundant herds. It was a political problem from start to finish.

 

[wyodan]

i simply cant imagine going into the mountains knowing i will NOT see a bear,or know for sure that there is NOT a lion watching me right now.The feeling you get seeing a big fresh bear track in the trail ,or finding a lion track in your own track coming back is pure magic! It is something i hope might happen everytime i go out!
Eliminate all the predators? The Rockies dont deserve to be neutered like that.

I think the same thing. Several times over the last few years, I have found bear tracks on top of mine. Add in seeing one while you are hunting, very invigorating! I love it, it's the closest I can get to being in the wilds 150 years ago.

 

[Shrek]

Wasn't human involvment what happened to the buffalo?

Yes , on both ends of the spectrum. First we wiped them out and now we're bringing them back.
And to answer the 1080 and coyotes statement , yes , 1080 wiped out the wolves and yes we have coyotes east of the Mississippi river now. We also have a bunch more deer without cougars and red wolves and we are now managing for the coyotes. Things change and humans adapt.