Disgusting!!!!!

Bbrown , what you sight is a political problem , not an inability to properly manage the elk RMNP , but lack of political will to do so effectively. They could have issued tags and hunters would have lined up to hunt the abundant herds. It was a political problem from start to finish.

Exactly - so you are wanting to eliminate all predators and in turn give all the power and the fate of our entire ecosystem over to that same government?

I think the bottom line where you and differ is I enjoy being part of the system while you would rather have the system at your disposal.
 
I know that I'm in a small minority but I'm 100% human centric. I'm all for humans and their total control of their world. I'm against giving up any of that power. My notion of game management is to maximize its benefits for humans . Sharing game with a bunch of mangy wild canines , cats , and grizzlies is not what I'm for.
 
Sharing game with a bunch of mangy wild canines , cats , and grizzlies is not what I'm for.

haha - that made me laugh out loud. When you put it that way you make me sound like a hippy - I was born and grew up around Boulder (a fact Im not too proud of) but maybe some of that rubber off on me.

Obviously we disagree on this one but all else it makes for good debate.
 
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I grew up in north florida and south Georgia in the late eighties when coyotes were just starting to arrive. We had deer running everywhere. I was in a club just over the Florida line in South Georgia and we would see 5 to 20+ deer every sit. Then all of a sudden the deer started to disappear. Within two years it was rare to see more than one or two deer and never a large herd of ten or more like we had had before. We thought the place was being poached or something. After the last year of hunting there I was watching the news when a report about Florida F&G releasing Texas cougars in the Apalachicola national forest came on and they showed a map of where they had dispersed to. One of the dots was right on top of my $1200 dollar a year deer lease. That showed me the real impact of a lion and what it is like with and without the cat. I hate cats ! I hate wolves ! I hate bears ! Always will.
 
I suspect that even if you could knock down as many predators as possible around here, 10% of the hunters would still be killing 90% of the game:-)

Speaking of political will and total control for human use, like it or not, the grizzly is responsible for huge chunks of roadless areas and gated roads. What would your hunt be like if every road was open with more to be built? I guarantee the ATV, timber, development, etc. lobby is way stronger than the backwoods hunter lobby!
 
Shrek,
It sounds to me like you just want really easy hunting.

I have been watching this thread all day and did not want to post but I totally agree with this. A predatorless land would lead to easy hunting with tons of game in the short term but long term overpopulation of ungulates would cause major issues. Overgrazing, disease and other problems would lead to some really poor hunting in the future, maybe not next year or in ten but someday we would be done hunting
 
I'm all for easy , hard , and whatever kind of hunting you enjoy. If you want to hunt with a stick and string in the most remote and rugged area then thats great and if you want to shoot the first legal animal you see with a rifle resting on the hood of the truck then go for it. As long as the animal isn't in a small fenced in park I'm all for it. I don't want to hunt with a stick and string in bfe but I don't want to shoot it from the window of my truck either. I don't see why elk and deer populations can't be on par with central Colorado across the rest of the rockies except for the wolves , lions , and bears. I Want elk and deer at the carrying capacity of the land not the level to support a bunch of predators competing with humans.
 
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I have been watching this thread all day and did not want to post but I totally agree with this. A predatorless land would lead to easy hunting with tons of game in the short term but long term overpopulation of ungulates would cause major issues. Overgrazing, disease and other problems would lead to some really poor hunting in the future, maybe not next year or in ten but someday we would be done hunting

You assume that the hunting would be too easy but I believe Sam is right that most of the game would betaken by a small minority of hunters and I also believe we can manage the game fine without letting them over populate. The over population of game I've seen has always been the result of restrictive hunting seasons and rules. Open it up longer and with more effective weapons and humans will reduce populations quickly but in a controlled fashion . When management goals are met simply shorten or close the season. When wild apex predators do it they do it until the population goes bust and the predators collapse or move on.
 
I don't post much but this thread has made me do it. The guys responsible for purposely injurying an animal(any animal) and not dispatching it quickly are a disgrace to all of us and I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Secondly shrek after reading your posts I really think you are missing why some of us(at least me) enjoy hunting. I enjoy the wild and the wilderness and that includes the predators that go with it. If you want a closed system easy hunt with no predators go hunt a high fence ranch
 
The rest of the Rockies don't look like central CO and will never support the same densities of ungulates without massive clear cutting or fire, and planting of feed. Hell, our elk were transplanted here in the 1940s. The only reason they could be was the habitat created by the fires of 1910. They prospered with the abundant logging through the 80s. I think we are at the carrying capacity, around here, for the most part if we don't create more habitat.

There is always a bogeyman for perceived lack of game, mostly (I think), because the animals we like to hunt adapt more quickly than we do to the things that change their behavior.
 
The reality is that my views are going away the same as hunting will in the not so distant future. The reintroduction of wolves , grizzlies , and reduction in suppression of lions is central to the elimination of hunting in the future. I can only hope I'll be dead by the time current anti hunting programs become completely effective. I'm 45 now so this may be a reasonable hope but the guys in their early twenties will probably be shut out before they would have had to quit from old age.
 
Sam , I'm all for opening up the logging again in the NW. I think you are right that the quiltwork of different forest maturity is a boon to the game. Without logging then the whole NW needs to burn on a regular basis. I personally would rather see it logged than burn.
 
The feral pigs are yet another perfect example of human involvement with a terrible outcome.

Wolves ring a bell?????? Human involvement with a terrible outcome?? Imagine that...............

Randy

P.S. IF this story is true, this scum should have the book thrown at them. And the OP was correct---it is just plain outright disgusting.
 
Like someone else said, I don't post much, but I felt the need to comment on this thread. The following is a statement from the chairman of Boone & Crockett's conservation committee in 1969, Lee Talbot. His thoughts are pretty similar to my attitude towards the question of predators (I, too, enjoy knowing that bigger and toothier things are out in the mountains with me), and it also sheds light on who is behind predator reintroduction/preservation.

If I wanted to read about how wolves/cats/bears were reintroduced in order to destroy hunting, I would go read the comments on Field & Stream.

Again, this is from 1969--

“Throughout much of his early history, man has been in conflict with predators, either because the predators represented a direct threat to man and his livestock or because they competed with man for certain prey species. One result of this relationship has been the wholesale extermination of larger predators. Over half of the mammalian species exterminated in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Antarctic, and North America have been larger predators (the bear, dog, and cat families). The earliest documented extermination was the European lion, in about 40 A.D.

Another result of the historical man-predator relationship is the attitude with which man views the predators. On the one hand, for many peoples of many cultures, various larger predators symbolize strength, courage, and power. On the other hand, to a few people the subject remains remarkably emotional, and there are still a few who maintain the view that ‘the only good varmint is a dead varmint’. The same sentiment was expressed about the American Indians, and for many of the same reasons. Fortunately, we have gotten past that stage in the case of the Indians, and we are getting past it with predators.

Modern biology has shown that predators are an integral and quite necessary part of nature. Destruction of predators has been carried out because of the belief that deer and other game animals could not survive their depredations. The great body of scientific research, however, shows that if anything the reverse is true. In the first place, predators and prey evolved here together and if they couldn’t survive, one or the other would have been long since extinct. But further, when the predators are removed, the side effects are frequently extremely damaging to the environment and to the prey species itself.

Throughout its history the Boone and Crockett Club has played an important role in assuring a conservation ‘fair deal’ for various forms of wildlife, including, of course, the large predators. The Club’s recent activities on behalf of the polar bear are a current example, as is its current concern with wolves. Like other large predators, wolves are an integral and necessary part of the ecosystem in which they live and although they have generated a great deal of misinformation and emotional heat, there are a number of fine biological studies that show their real and important role in ecology. These include, for example, the works of Pimlott, Murie, Allen, and Seaton.

In some areas there are conflicts between predators and other human interests. The same situation can exist with virtually any other large wild animal. The solutions to such problems, as to most other conservation issues, require an objective approach based upon the best available scientific information. This approach is basic to the conservation principles on which the Club is founded, and the Club recognizes a continuing responsibility to bring this approach to conservation of predators as well as to other forms of wildlife.”
 
I kinda enjoy having a fair predator population to improve my hunting skills, decorate my man cave and to make a few coin. + I would hate to see hunting be limited to the big game seasons only.
 
It is just sick what some people will do for money. I hope these criminals get the punishment they deserve.

I am glad to see there are quite a few people on here that enjoy the wild and the predators that exist in wild places. If there were no predators in the wilderness it would take a huge part of the hunting experience away. I enjoy seeing bears and finding lion tracks over my own tracks from the night before. Shrek, you made me laugh with your 100% human centric comment and humans total control of their world. We humans are not as powerful as we think and mother nature reminds us of that frequently.

Here is a lion my brothers and I treed a few weeks ago. We let her go and last week I saw her tracks again. I could never imagine wanting to completely eliminate, or intentionally wound such an amazing creature.





 
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