Defund the Police?

[Mosster47]

If there were no systemic racism and it were just a few bad apples then why are we here every 15ish years?

Tulsa, Birmingham, Watts, Dallas, LA, Ferguson, etc.

They're all caused by the same thing. The far right says the same thing every single time. When you look back they're on the wrong side of history when it involves civil or morality matters every single time. That doesn't mean they are bad people, they're just usually a generation or two behind progress. 40 years ago we had riots and governors weaponizing segregation from college campuses to political rallies. Surely we're smart enough to not think all of those actions and thinking are just suddenly gone while a large number of those violently opposed to it are still alive and their direct descendants definitely are.

This isn't an accident. If the same group of people keep bringing up the same issue over and over and over and over again it takes a special type of person to pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Gearqueer]

If there were no systemic racism and it were just a few bad apples then why are we here every 15ish years?

Tulsa, Birmingham, Watts, Dallas, LA, Ferguson, etc.

.

Ferguson (Michael Brown incident) is an extremely bad example of systemic racism, and is part of the problem with the legitimacy of BLM and ANTIFA.

Another bad example of systemic racism is what four bad police officers did a few weeks ago. I haven’t seen any evidence yet that proves Floyd’s race was relevant. This is why there is push-back to the agenda.

I think the reason why this comes up so often is the fact that the media gets so many clicks and watch-time. If it bleeds it leads.


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[Newtosavage]

When it comes to tactics I think that the ever-evolving world of LE training has served us pretty well up to this point. As with anything, it’s the 1% of bad outcomes that bring controversy. I don’t think that we need to over-correct which is why I am against the “defund police” idea. It comes down to LE leadership and officers being even-keeled under stressful situations both in the planning phase and on the street. Seeking a perfect solution to that 1% of police calls that go horribly wrong will always continue whether or not people scream and protest.

Good hiring and firing is most important here. Unions need to take ownership of their officers’ mental health. Job-induced PTS is the elephant in the room, and only the police unions can address it. That’s what needs to change.

I spent several years in a Community Oriented Policing Unit, several in an aggressive vice unit, and all-the-while I was active in SWAT (gasp). Unfortunately there is a place for all those units and their tactics.

There is a lot of localized nuance here, and protesters and citizens should recognize this before trying to re-invent a better wheel or alienate their current and future police officers. It needs to be apolitical and race-neutral if they want any smart change.


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100% spot-on.

I've been watching with some angst as one of the small towns near me (pop. 3400) goes through police chief after police chief. It is a very diverse community with lots of financial challenges no matter what color you are. Some would describe it as a "dying" small town, but I don't think of it that way. Anyway, there are vocal people on many sides that continue to put the chief and his very small, incredibly poorly paid staff of officers in lose-lose situations, demanding more from them than anyone could deliver. This is very similar to the situation our public school teachers are being put in these days. Diminishing resources, poor pay, and nothing but increasing expectations from people who constantly criticize them, never having walked a mile in their shoes.

I think politics and social media and corporate for-profit "news" stations have turned people into constant critics. Nobody gets the benefit of the doubt anymore. I told my son that I pray his generation will finally get things right.

 

[16Bore]

How much of the problem is in the hands of the teachers unions and the police unions? Or would it be worse without them?

Union=lobbyists IMO

 

[Gearqueer]

How much of the problem is in the hands of the teachers unions and the police unions? Or would it be worse without them?

Union=lobbyists IMO

@16Bore,

I will give you just my answer:... it depends.

I think unions are a net negative. In my limited experience police unions tend to do their heavy lifting when they represent officers against their employer in disciplinary cases. Edit: depending on the state, unions are often an unfunded mandate that shuffle officer’s earnings into politicians campaigns.

I have seen unions protect bad employees time, and time again. They also defend officers in situation where the officer was innocent and got caught up in something while just doing their best. Even without unions when someone is wrongfully terminated they can resort to a lawsuit.

Unions need to have another tool in their toolbox when it comes to a once-sterling “tenured” officer who is starting to show signs of losing their way. I’ve seen it before several times and you can normally see it coming a mile away. Cops are neither immune to compounded stress nor post-traumatic stress. Statistically, an officer who has been in a shooting (which are overwhelmingly righteous) is exponentially more likely to be in another before the end of their career. Think about that for a minute.

The profession doesn’t tolerate any confession of PTS at a peer or supervisory level. Instead of “maybe this job’s not for you,” the union and its members should treat it as a job-induced injury like the military started implementing. This will be expensive.

It’s literally a sign a weakness in the community to admit that stress is getting to you. When I watched the Floyd video in Minneapolis I saw officer(s) who lost their humanity. I doubt that happened overnight.


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[Newtosavage]

If things are broken (which I believe they are) then they need fixed. It shouldn't be based on a simple majority. We all need to be mature enough to see those issues and be willing to fix them, regardless of whether they impact us personally.

You're right. It shouldn't be up to a simple majority of inexperienced people who have no education or training on the matter. But getting the masses to listen to actual experts had been a problem for quite some time now.

 

[Marbles]

Fortunately we live in a country that is structured in a way to prevent it from degenerating into absolute hell(nazi Germany/soviet union, many other states).

We live in a country that is probably far enough below the tipping point that absolute hell is not an immediate threat. However, assuming we are safe could lead to it as the tipping point is allowed to slide down and/or the divisive energy increases, closing the gap.

 

[16Bore]

Say Brooks “got away”. Ran off and the cops didn’t pursue him. They have his car, know who he is, have him on video, and the breathalyzer test.

Without him being arrested, would he simply just have to get his car out of hock? End of story?

Interesting because Virginia Delegate Chris Hurst blew over the legal limit and the cop just let the passenger drive. I suppose when Congress is in session, drinking and driving is OK.

And there’s your white privilege.......

 

[street]

We live in a country that is probably far enough below the tipping point that absolute hell is not an immediate threat. However, assuming we are safe could lead to it as the tipping point is allowed to slide down and/or the divisive energy increases, closing the gap.

That's exactly why freedom of speech is the FIRST Amendment. The war of ideas on the level of discourse is clearly a better alternative to war itself.

The left is needed because there must be a spokesperson for the lower class; at least thats how its supposed to be. And the right is there to fight against the ideas of equality of outcome.

 

[RyanT26]

Well if we’re going to what if, what if he carjacked Another vehicle in the drive-through with the taser he stolen off the police officer and then leads the police on a pursuit until he’s driving the wrong way down the highway and slams headfirst into a family who just heading home from getting ice cream.

I have a feeling if the family was white no one would care and they would be told to check theIt privilege. If it was a black family then the police would be blamed again for pursuing a man that was just “passed out in the drive-through”.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas.

 

[dtrkyman]

Defund the Government first!

 

[KSP277]

Say Brooks “got away”. Ran off and the cops didn’t pursue him. They have his car, know who he is, have him on video, and the breathalyzer test.

Without him being arrested, would he simply just have to get his car out of hock? End of story?

maybe. Or maybe he runs in a house, or steals a car, or 10 feet later gets pancaked by a car and dies. Or maybe he stops lays the recently borrowed taser down and decides to go on to jail. I dunno.

I’m not being critical of your statement I’m just saying there’s endless amount of possibilities. Just because you stop chasing doesn’t mean they stop running. I hate this has become a right left thing. What happened to middle ground.
The thing that blows my mind the most out of the George Floyd deal is that there’s 2 white guys, a black guy, and an Asian guy all arrested, and rightfully so, for being responsible for this mans death, and it’s a race issue????

 

[16Bore]

I reckon it’s the ifs and buts that make the world so complicated.

 

[RyanT26]

Could be, but you muddy up the waters when using “if’s and buts” when looking at use of force situations.

 

[Mosster47]

So if someone is running away from the cops with a non-lethal weapon the logical option is to just gun them down because there is a very small chance they might do something bad?

Checks out...

 

[*zap*]

Maybe if he did not resist and disarm one officer then try to flee while shooting a tazer at one officer he would not have been shot?

 

[Torrent50]

Say Brooks “got away”. Ran off and the cops didn’t pursue him. They have his car, know who he is, have him on video, and the breathalyzer test.

Without him being arrested, would he simply just have to get his car out of hock? End of story?

Interesting because Virginia Delegate Chris Hurst blew over the legal limit and the cop just let the passenger drive. I suppose when Congress is in session, drinking and driving is OK.

And there’s your white privilege.......

So the solution is that anytime someone decides to fight the police they should just be allowed to get away???? How does that make sense.?

As for your comparison of the congressman's situation, unless it was the same two officers that stopped both people you can't compare them. Every officer is an individual and just because someone in another state made a decision on a DUI doesn't mean that another officer in a different state even knows about that or would have made the same decision. You act as though all 800,000 officers are supposed to be robots that all think and react to every situation identically. That is like saying that we are all hunters so we all think and react the same, which based on this discussion is clearly not the case.

As for the situation with this shooting. Do we know that the officer who fired knew it was a taser? Do we know that he knew that the suspect took his partner's taser? Do we know that he didn't think it was his partners gun? Or a gun that the suspect had concealed? Or if the officer based his decision on the DA previously saying that a taser is just like deadly force? A lot of assumptions are being made which is why a thorough independent investigation should be completed before any judgement is made. Or does due process only apply to some? I'm guessing the white officer who was fired without due process isn't feeling much white privilege.........

 

[oldskool67]

Where did you see that narrative? Or are those just words you are putting in my mouth so you have something to disagree with.

I meant to say that is the narrative in general not implying you were saying it. If you watch enough news and see what people are saying in the BLM movement and in academia you will see that this is the narrative being pushed by many. Are many people in the movement talking about systemic racism ? Yes, but BLM is still clinging the “hands up don’t shoot” of how the noble Mr Brown was viciously murdered by the police for being black. When POTUS at the time weighed in against the police before all the facts were in, this is what you get now. They teach in school that the police are waging war against blacks.

Racism is still a serious issue in this country. Most of the protesters think they are doing the right thing to support BLM against racism. Unfortunately all this defund talk is coming from a far left ideology that sees a great opportunity to get their agenda pushed through. So it’s a brilliant coup we are witnessing right now. Push your Marxist agenda wrapped as a great crusade against racism. Because who in their right mind would be against calling out racism ?

 

[*zap*]

Tucker: Black Lives Matter 'enjoys almost complete immunity from criticism,'

Tucker Carlson opened Monday's edition of "Tucker Carlson Tonight" with a discussion of the popularity of the Black Lives Matter movement, describing it as the first political party that cannot be criticized without professional or personal consequences.

www.foxnews.com

 

[16Bore]

So the solution is that anytime someone decides to fight the police they should just be allowed to get away???? How does that make sense.?

As for your comparison of the congressman's situation, unless it was the same two officers that stopped both people you can't compare them. Every officer is an individual and just because someone in another state made a decision on a DUI doesn't mean that another officer in a different state even knows about that or would have made the same decision. You act as though all 800,000 officers are supposed to be robots that all think and react to every situation identically. That is like saying that we are all hunters so we all think and react the same, which based on this discussion is clearly not the case.

As for the situation with this shooting. Do we know that the officer who fired knew it was a taser? Do we know that he knew that the suspect took his partner's taser? Do we know that he didn't think it was his partners gun? Or a gun that the suspect had concealed? Or if the officer based his decision on the DA previously saying that a taser is just like deadly force? A lot of assumptions are being made which is why a thorough independent investigation should be completed before any judgement is made. Or does due process only apply to some? I'm guessing the white officer who was fired without due process isn't feeling much white privilege.........

Do you actually “think” ANYONE would/will consider all the consequences of the Brooks shooting or Floyd’s death? The delegate? Not a f’n chance. There’s two dead black people at the hands of the police and that’s all anyone (media) cares about.

They weren’t doing anything wrong. That’s the story we’re being told. Right? That makes anyone who thinks otherwise a racist, right?

You might have missed the post where I said “you can’t get out of unreason with reason”