Defund the Police?

[Mike7]

A person can deny there is systemic racism out of ignorance or just blindness to the issue. It doesn't mean they are a bad person or are racist themselves. It just means they lack perspective or experience. I think the majority of whites fall into that category. Good people who are free to go about their daily lives without ever thinking about the issues that people of color have to face all the time. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It just means they are blind to the challenges that others face. Same is true for people with disabilities. How many of us walk down a street and up a flight of stairs and never once think about how someone with a disability might have to do what we take for granted every day? I do it all the time. Doesn't make someone a bad person. It just means there is room for growth and awareness of the issues that others around us face. That's all.

Where someone becomes part of the problem is when those issues, whether they be race-related or disability-related, are made clear to someone and they still act as if they don't exist.

I contend that people who use the systemic racism shield as an excuse to not make real changes, are the major problem that we face now.

They only see color and expect that an American is lesser just because of their skin color, they think that some people require special privileges to exist instead of the rights that we all deserve, they call other people racist just because they disagree with them, they use race and division as a political tool to maintain the power structure, they actively promote segregation, and they condone doing the same things over and over again which have been shown to suppress the success of poor people of all colors. They are the anti-MLK.

If I was an evil genius and was to devise the best plan to stay in power as a warlord or mayor, and keep the people subdued and subservient to my controlling power structure, I would do it the following way. This would likely be the first 5 points of my plan.
This plan might sound familiar, because this plan was apparently stolen from me decades ago by cities like Chicago, LA, and New York.

First I would disarm the population for their own good. Guns are bad after all. There would be no permits to carry for my subjects. No gun safety programs in school. No firearms proficiency training. Any law abiding citizen would be intimidated from ever carrying a gun. Citizens would feel powerless in their own neighborhoods while armed gangs roamed the streets where my police allowed. Parents would feel hopeless and frustrated, not really knowing where to go or what to demand to do better for their kids.

Second, I would create a monopoly on the educational system. I would constantly tell students that their education sucks because there is just not enough money, even though demonstrably untrue statistically. I would have my tenured teacher soldiers not only disseminate this message, but also brainwash the kids to think that everyone else is out to get them. Only I and my people are on their side. My teacher army would be forced to pay union dues, and then the union would pay for my re-election, while I protected the union and the union protected the bad teachers. Charter schools would be evil and be treated as such politically and legally. I would marginalize parents who pushed for charter schools and paint them as radicals who were trying to tear down our very way of life.

Third, I would hold the power to enforce all kinds of restrictions on businesses, so that the economy was always comparatively depressed in my controlled area and businesses would need me to look the other way on some restrictions in order to make it, and also need my blessing in order to get extra police protection. The businesses that were able to operate in this environment, would of course support my campaign/cabal.

Fourth, I would have a police dept within a police dept, or a district attorney's office within a district attorney's office...a deep state if you will. Not for racist purposes, but for controlling others as needed through pseudo-legal harassment, which would be almost impossible to tie back to me. I would support police unions and tacitly support police harassment of citizens through additional regulations, police unions would protect officers, and when needed I would get together with the union to throw an officer under the bus whether they deserved it or not in order to divert attention away from myself. The officer would however be paid by the union to go away quietly, and would be given letters of recommendation so that they could get a job elsewhere, even if they were a bad officer.

Fifth, I would make hefty government "investments" in community organizations such as churches, etc. so that they understood that at the end of the day, they would be crushed financially and from a public relations standpoint if not willing to play on my team.

Oh, and I would ultimately even brainwash through my public school system and the media, white progressives, and get them to not just be indifferent, but actually support my corruption by feeling guilty for not being dark skinned or for not being poor. And if they were poor, I would tell them that they still have privilege, it is just that they are being held down by large corporations.

You may think all of the above sounds like a fairy tale or some impossible magic trick or an impossible Marvel movie plot, but it has been happening successfully for decades...that is how much of an evil genius I am.

 

[Newtosavage]

wow.

curious how you feel about vaccines, and the shape of the earth now.

I guess it's your right to counter attack a well documented, factual argument with conspiracy theories. Long live freedom of speech.

 

[jmez]

Since when the hell did having a emergency and calling for help (911) become someone exercising a privilege?

Since 6/14/20 in Minneapolis.

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[Poser]

Careful, in the wilderness of mirrors truth becomes whatever you want it to be, and thus meaningless. Regardless of where the idea originated there is evidence of organic support for it from bona fide liberals. People tend to make bad strategic choices even when a situation is much calmer than this, so it is hard to use the strategic unsoundness of an idea as proof that it is not genuine.

On a different note.
I do find it funny when people I know who supported Cliven Bundy and his tactics now turn around and condemn similar tactics when used by the other side (CHAZ). Of course the mirror is that many of those who condemned Bundy based on actions, now condone substantially similar action used to achieve political ends they agree with.

I would laugh at it all if not for the potential seriousness of the consequences.

I’ve made this observation as well. There is a lot of hypocrisy and highly selective philosophy when it comes to the application of law enforcement. On other areas of social media, it’s interesting that the pro confederate (in theory) crowd is actually anti confederate in application.

Worth noting:

- 400 pages of discussion and some still think that “defund the police” still means “no police”

-Americans are free to determine what kind of law enforcement we want to have as a society. If the majority of Americans are unhappy with the application of law enforcement, then society is free and has the power to make the change. Law enforcement serves at the will and consent of the people. Period. You can’t argue for a free society and advocate for more heavy handed enforcement and far reaching authority. Could be that we’ve hit the tipping point. It was bound to happen at some point, might as well be now.

 

[jmez]

But are the majority of Americans unhappy?

 

[Newtosavage]

Since 6/14/20 in Minneapolis.

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I thought it was when the basic white girl called 911 on the birdwatcher in central park. LOL

 

[street]

I contend that people who use the systemic racism shield as an excuse to not make real changes, are the major problem that we face now.

They only see color and expect that an American is lesser just because of their skin color, they think that some people require special privileges to exist instead of the rights that we all deserve, they call other people racist just because they disagree with them, they use race and division as a political tool to maintain the power structure, they actively promote segregation, and they condone doing the same things over and over again which have been shown to suppress the success of poor people of all colors. They are the anti-MLK.

If I was an evil genius and was to devise the best plan to stay in power as a warlord or mayor, and keep the people subdued and subservient to my controlling power structure, I would do it the following way. This would likely be the first 5 points of my plan.
This plan might sound familiar, because this plan was apparently stolen from me decades ago by cities like Chicago, LA, and New York.

First I would disarm the population for their own good. Guns are bad after all. There would be no permits to carry for my subjects. No gun safety programs in school. No firearms proficiency training. Any law abiding citizen would be intimidated from ever carrying a gun. Citizens would feel powerless in their own neighborhoods while armed gangs roamed the streets where my police allowed. Parents would feel hopeless and frustrated, not really knowing where to go or what to demand to do better for their kids.

Second, I would create a monopoly on the educational system. I would constantly tell students that their education sucks because there is just not enough money, even though demonstrably untrue statistically. I would have my tenured teacher soldiers not only disseminate this message, but also brainwash the kids to think that everyone else is out to get them. Only I and my people are on their side. My teacher army would be forced to pay union dues, and then the union would pay for my re-election, while I protected the union and the union protected the bad teachers. Charter schools would be evil and be treated as such politically and legally. I would marginalize parents who pushed for charter schools and paint them as radicals who were trying to tear down our very way of life.

Third, I would hold the power to enforce all kinds of restrictions on businesses, so that the economy was always comparatively depressed in my controlled area and businesses would need me to look the other way on some restrictions in order to make it, and also need my blessing in order to get extra police protection. The businesses that were able to operate in this environment, would of course support my campaign/cabal.

Fourth, I would have a police dept within a police dept, or a district attorney's office within a district attorney's office...a deep state if you will. Not for racist purposes, but for controlling others as needed through pseudo-legal harassment, which would be almost impossible to tie back to me. I would support police unions and tacitly support police harassment of citizens through additional regulations, police unions would protect officers, and when needed I would get together with the union to throw an officer under the bus whether they deserved it or not in order to divert attention away from myself. The officer would however be paid by the union to go away quietly, and would be given letters of recommendation so that they could get a job elsewhere, even if they were a bad officer.

Fifth, I would make hefty government "investments" in community organizations such as churches, etc. so that they understood that at the end of the day, they would be crushed financially and from a public relations standpoint if not willing to play on my team.

Oh, and I would ultimately even brainwash through my public school system and the media, white progressives, and get them to not just be indifferent, but actually support my corruption by feeling guilty for not being dark skinned or for not being poor. And if they were poor, I would tell them that they still have privilege, it is just that they are being held down by large corporations.

You may think all of the above sounds like a fairy tale or some impossible magic trick or an impossible Marvel movie plot, but it has been happening successfully for decades...that is how much of an evil genius I am.

Soviet union
China under Mao
Venezuela
N Korea
...

You don't need any more evidence than the 20th century. Something on the order of 150 million people dead over internal oppression alone. The issue is way deeper than "systemic racism".

Njce post btw.

 

[16Bore]

“Defund the Police!” Is appealing and a crowd pleasing chant. The left of left love it.

“Better training and rewriting the rules of engagement” is like watching paint dry. Any reasonable person would likely agree.

You can’t get out of unreason, with reason.

 

[Newtosavage]

Any chant that sounds like "eff the police" is all but guaranteed to hand the election over. What a gift. It's either incredible stupidity, or incredibly clever manipulation, or both. Either way, it is exactly what the far right needed at the time.

Never let a good over-reaction go to waste.

 

[street]

One good thing about this thread, is the (relatively) civil discourse - this is how we actually make meaningful progress as inadequate human beings. As soon as the discussions stop, we are all in trouble. It wouldn't be a debate unless both points of view had at least some kind of underlying truth. Its a matter of us figuring out the absolute truth.

Fortunately we live in a country that is structured in a way to prevent it from degenerating into absolute hell(nazi Germany/soviet union, many other states).

 

[Gearqueer]

You will not meet anyone who will tell you the officers’ use of force in the video was 100% righteous. If the protests focused their message on these officers we wouldn’t have a divided country.

You can’t blindly assume that every time a person is killed by a police officer that their race was relevant. This agenda is inflammatory and divisive. True leaders empower people instead of giving them scapegoats.

In my 10-year law enforcement career I never observed any officer treat a person differently because of the color of their skin. I worked with many other partners, prosecutors, and judges of color. I realize that elsewhere this could be very different. The metro areas that are on the main stage of protests couldn’t clone a more diverse courts or law enforcement population. If systemic racism is a problem in these big cities then the Democratic Party has a lot of serious explaining to do.

Edit: to remove blah

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[Azone]

True leaders empower people instead of giving them scapegoats.

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Very true. Integrity is a hard concept for some leaders to grasp.

 

[jmez]

Not sure there are any current leaders with any integrity? I can't think of any. They all lie like a rug.

 

[Newtosavage]

You will not meet anyone who will tell you the officers’ use of force in the video was 100% righteous. If the protests focused their message on these officers we wouldn’t have a divided country.

You can’t blindly assume that every time a person is killed by a police officer that their race was relevant. This agenda is inflammatory and divisive. True leaders empower people instead of giving them scapegoats.

In my 10-year law enforcement career I never observed any officer treat a person differently because of the color of their skin. I worked with many other partners, prosecutors, and judges of color. I realize that elsewhere this could be very different. The metro areas that are on the main stage of protests couldn’t clone a more diverse courts or law enforcement population. If systemic racism is a problem in these big cities then the Democratic Party has a lot of serious explaining to do.

Edit: to remove blah

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I think the issue is more complex than race alone. It's also about tactics and training.

I was an LEO for over 15 years and while the vast majority of officers I worked with were colorblind in the best sense of the word, I can think of several who were very racist and everyone knew who they were. But as a whole, I think police forces are made up of some of our finest men and women and as you say, are - like the modern military - often at least as diverse as the communities they serve.

I think the only way to solve this issue is to be truly objective about the facts. But that's hard to do when people bring agendas and bias and can't check that at the door. And as you can see, the mere mention of "race" sends people into a frenzy. Just look at how much action this thread has gotten.

Tactics and training need to change. But so does the job description. What police officers are asked to do, needs to change. Like public school teachers, they are put in an impossible situation and then placed under a microscope. It's not fair to these men and women and it's not fair to the communities they are asked to serve.

So long as people see every issue as a liberal/conservative, left/right, republican/democrat binary question, we will never make progress. That is the umbrella problem that we are all trying to operate under and it just simply does not work in a democracy.

As soon as I see someone start blaming "the other side" I immediately discount their opinion. That way of thinking will get us nowhere.

 

[16Bore]

Worth repeating:

Tactics and training need to change. But so does the job description. What police officers are asked to do, needs to change. Like public school teachers, they are put in an impossible situation and then placed under a microscope. It's not fair to these men and women and it's not fair to the communities they are asked to serve.

 

[OldGrayJB]

But are the majority of Americans unhappy?

Great question. I think most of us are looking at this on a case by case basis. Personally, I was disgusted by the Floyd video. You can see the cops hip moving back and forth as he appears to be grinding his knee into Floyd's neck. I'm glad he was arrested and I think 3rd degree is an appropriate charge.

However, if the whole system was as racist as some portray it to be, Floyd would have been in prison serving one of those long, unfair sentences that black people supposedly get in our broken system.

 

[Lukem]

But are the majority of Americans unhappy?

I don't want a country where we're making decisions simply based on what 50.1% want, 2 wolves and a sheep and all that. We need to do what's right.

 

[Poser]

I don't want a country where we're making decisions simply based on what 50.1% want, 2 wolves and a sheep and all that. We need to do what's right.

Ok then, there’s things that happen during the application law enforcement that “aren’t right”, so maybe let’s make some appropriate changes.

That work for you?

 

[Lukem]

Ok then, there’s things that happen during the application law enforcement that “aren’t right”, so maybe let’s make some appropriate changes.

That work for you?

If things are broken (which I believe they are) then they need fixed. It shouldn't be based on a simple majority. We all need to be mature enough to see those issues and be willing to fix them, regardless of whether they impact us personally.

 

[Gearqueer]

I think the issue is more complex than race alone. It's also about tactics and training.

I was an LEO for over 15 years and while the vast majority of officers I worked with were colorblind in the best sense of the word, I can think of several who were very racist and everyone knew who they were. But as a whole, I think police forces are made up of some of our finest men and women and as you say, are - like the modern military - often at least as diverse as the communities they serve.

I think the only way to solve this issue is to be truly objective about the facts. But that's hard to do when people bring agendas and bias and can't check that at the door. And as you can see, the mere mention of "race" sends people into a frenzy. Just look at how much action this thread has gotten.

Tactics and training need to change. But so does the job description. What police officers are asked to do, needs to change. Like public school teachers, they are put in an impossible situation and then placed under a microscope. It's not fair to these men and women and it's not fair to the communities they are asked to serve.

So long as people see every issue as a liberal/conservative, left/right, republican/democrat binary question, we will never make progress. That is the umbrella problem that we are all trying to operate under and it just simply does not work in a democracy.

As soon as I see someone start blaming "the other side" I immediately discount their opinion. That way of thinking will get us nowhere.

When it comes to tactics I think that the ever-evolving world of LE training has served us pretty well up to this point. As with anything, it’s the 1% of bad outcomes that bring controversy. I don’t think that we need to over-correct which is why I am against the “defund police” idea. It comes down to LE leadership and officers being even-keeled under stressful situations both in the planning phase and on the street. Seeking a perfect solution to that 1% of police calls that go horribly wrong will always continue whether or not people scream and protest.

Good hiring and firing is most important here. Unions need to take ownership of their officers’ mental health. Job-induced PTS is the elephant in the room, and only the police unions can address it. That’s what needs to change.

I spent several years in a Community Oriented Policing Unit, several in an aggressive vice unit, and all-the-while I was active in SWAT (gasp). Unfortunately there is a place for all those units and their tactics.

There is a lot of localized nuance here, and protesters and citizens should recognize this before trying to re-invent a better wheel or alienate their current and future police officers. It needs to be apolitical and race-neutral if they want any smart change.


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