Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy experience?

[GreenNDark Timber]

Don't let the e-collar intimidate you, but you are smart for proceeding cautiously until you learn how to use it correctly. When used correctly, your dog will be excited when you put the collar on them. Mine sees the Garmin bag come out and knows he's about to get to do what he loves.

In addition to Freddy King's vidoes mentioned by Kurt above, Evan Graham's Smart Fetch book and videos do a really good job of teaching how to use the collar correctly and with the least amount of stimulation necessary to reinforce the command.

 

[goathunter]

One last question, I'm pretty interested in Pat Nolan and Bill Hillman for puppy programs, which would you recommend for an amateur? Do either line out your training schedule better

 

[KurtR]

One last question, I'm pretty interested in Pat Nolan and Bill Hillman for puppy programs, which would you recommend for an amateur? Do either line out your training schedule better

either pick one and follow it and be consistent. You would have to have alot of experience and trained alot of dogs to be able to pick which one was better for what specific goals you have and what kind of dog you have in front of you.

Heres the thing every program lines it out but dogs dont follow time lines problems will arise and thats where you have to be able to figure out how to fix the problem or who your going to call to fix a problem. Most problems come from people who are not consistent. You have a standard you hold it all the time.

 

[JMitchell121]

I use Bill Hillman vodeos and thought they were great. Pricey but I sold mine for 75 percent of what they cost me. Heard good things about Pat Nolan. Both do incorporate e collars. I never used cornerstone but what I have seen I am not impressed. Lots of ads with guys dodg at side on a golf course throwing a dummy for a 2 year old dog 20 yards in a pond. I think wow my pup was doing that 16 weeks. I like to have a bird boy to get the dog to look out not at me. I havent watched many videos but the ones I have seen not impressed.

 

[JMitchell121]

I forgot also very pricey. Also check out a local retreiver club that might have some low key members you could meet with on the weekend for a training session. Good luck and have fun

 

[LONE HUNTER]

This is a bit older but i am going through cornerstone with my labrador. he's 10 months old. One thing I will say is it takes hella persistence to get the results they show with violet. My dog did awesome until we started lining out in the field (all the other stuff before this he really did quite good even in public parks etc). He still did ok at it but he's also decided sometimes he's just gonna go do his own thing. I can see why the e-collar crowd is saying what they do. I am hopeful he will continue to progress. If not I will have to get an ecollar for him and start working on that with him.

 

[KurtR]

This is a bit older but i am going through cornerstone with my labrador. he's 10 months old. One thing I will say is it takes hella persistence to get the results they show with violet. My dog did awesome until we started lining out in the field (all the other stuff before this he really did quite good even in public parks etc). He still did ok at it but he's also decided sometimes he's just gonna go do his own thing. I can see why the e-collar crowd is saying what they do. I am hopeful he will continue to progress. If not I will have to get an ecollar for him and start working on that with him.

Are you talking doing pattern blinds?

 

[LONE HUNTER]

Are you talking doing pattern blinds?

Right now it's just straight lines, I will heel him out 120 yards drop the bumper and have him mark it and heel him back and send him to go get it, and it's visible like on a dirt road. He will go get it in a straight line there and back most of the time but sometimes he just decides mid retrieve to go off and investigate some smell he's picked up.

 

[KurtR]

Right now it's just straight lines, I will heel him out 120 yards drop the bumper and have him mark it and heel him back and send him to go get it, and it's visible like on a dirt road. He will go get it in a straight line there and back most of the time but sometimes he just decides mid retrieve to go off and investigate some smell he's picked up.

Make the distance shorter. Put a white fence post or bucket out there for confidence. If he goes off line stop him with the whistle and give a straight back. If he doesnt take it make him sit and sweat it and cut the distance in half between you and the dog give the back cast again and keep cutting distance till you get the cast. You are using 100% percent attrition so its going to take alot longer than using compulsion based training. No more than 5 reps and always quit with a win even if you have to get close.

This quote can save you alot of problems in the future wish i would have been told that when I had a 10 month old.

"if you train a young dog for momentum precision will arrive. If you train for precision demanding perfection momentum will depart" ~ Rex Carr

 

[goathunter]

Just to report back, I've been doing the From the Pup Up course by Pat Nolan, and it's been pretty awesome. But I haven't really followed it strictly I've bounced around and also used ideas from a bunch of other books including clicker training and other videos as well, and even a couple sessions with an obedience trainer. I'm probably a little behind at this point, but I am fairly happy with my results.

I do want to pursue e-collar training in the future. I just want to make sure I don't screw it up. I'm I'm going to take a look at Pat Nolan's e-collar course as well.

 

[KurtR]

Just to report back, I've been doing the From the Pup Up course by Pat Nolan, and it's been pretty awesome. But I haven't really followed it strictly I've bounced around and also used ideas from a bunch of other books including clicker training and other videos as well, and even a couple sessions with an obedience trainer. I'm probably a little behind at this point, but I am fairly happy with my results.

I do want to pursue e-collar training in the future. I just want to make sure I don't screw it up. I'm I'm going to take a look at Pat Nolan's e-collar course as well.

you follow pat and you will be well on your way. I would stick with one program and when you get to advanced stuff then maybe pick and choose but get the basics rock solid and your ahead of 90% of the rest of the dogs around.

The ecollar isnt scarry its just a tool. Dont push that button out of anger and you will be just fine.

After i had messed up I was all worried i ruined my dog. I had one of the best field trial guys talk me off the ledge he said dog training is some times digging your self a hole and learning how to get out of it. Every one makes mistakes but just need to learn from them.

 

[eamyrick]

I used this program with my British Lab who is now 6 1/2. I got 95% there and resolved a few small issues with an e collar. I bet the dog has got less than 5-6 exposures his entire life but it changes his entire way of doing things.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

I used this program with my British Lab who is now 6 1/2. I got 95% there and resolved a few small issues with an e collar. I bet the dog has got less than 5-6 exposures his entire life but it changes his entire way of doing things.

When you say exposures what do you mean? Like shocked from the collar?

 

[eamyrick]

When you say exposures what do you mean? Like shocked from the collar?

Yes. I’m all for positive reinforcement training but for some dogs it gets you only so far. If you have unlimited time I’m sure you could work through it but I didn’t. My dog hates a check cord and would take a victory lap after retrieving before returning to hand. Collar immediately fixed the issue.

Also the term shock is overused. It’s a small scratch at most. I tried it on myself multiple times. Haven’t used it in years but the collar always goes on while hunting.

Every dog is different. If your dog works without one that’s great. From what I’ve seen those same dogs seem to have a bit less drive. Shot an 8 man limit of cranes and Davy was the only dog. Killed 1/4 of them and brought them back.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

Yes. I’m all for positive reinforcement training but for some dogs it gets you only so far. If you have unlimited time I’m sure you could work through it but I didn’t. My dog hates a check cord and would take a victory lap after retrieving before returning to hand. Collar immediately fixed the issue.

Every dog is different. If your dog works without one that’s great. From what I’ve seen those same dogs seem to have a bit less drive. Shot an 8 man limit of cranes and Davy was the only dog. Killed 1/4 of them and brought them back.

Good looking dog dude.

I am arriving to the same conclusion and I don't judge anyone who uses a collar. I am very likely going to be doing the same. I agree that it takes an enormous amount of repetitions to train out those bad habits with 100% positive reinforcement. Getting my dog to just pick the bumper up in the center and deliver to hand probably took 3-4 weeks longer than the 52+ schedule has it. My dog still reverts back to picking the damn bumper up wrong if he can tell I don't have any treats with me.

 

[eamyrick]

Good looking dog dude.

I am arriving to the same conclusion and I don't judge anyone who uses a collar. I am very likely going to be doing the same. I agree that it takes an enormous amount of repetitions to train out those bad habits with 100% positive reinforcement. Getting my dog to just pick the bumper up in the center and deliver to hand probably took 3-4 weeks longer than the 52+ schedule has it. My dog still reverts back to picking the damn bumper up wrong if he can tell I don't have any treats with me.

Also important to keep expectations low for the first two years. Dog’s mature and we have unrealistic expectations of 1 year old dogs. I’ve sat in alot of duck blinds, many with guides who do it all season long, and have yet to see the magical YouTube dog who doesn’t occasional break. Same with hand signals. Dog is built with a superhuman nose, it’s a whole lot easier to rely on that than looking like a jackass blowing a whistle looking like an nfl ref doing fancy hand signals outside of the blind.

 

[KurtR]

Good looking dog dude.

I am arriving to the same conclusion and I don't judge anyone who uses a collar. I am very likely going to be doing the same. I agree that it takes an enormous amount of repetitions to train out those bad habits with 100% positive reinforcement. Getting my dog to just pick the bumper up in the center and deliver to hand probably took 3-4 weeks longer than the 52+ schedule has it. My dog still reverts back to picking the damn bumper up wrong if he can tell I don't have any treats with me.

A lot of people are confused on what 100% positive training . A balanced trainer will use all four quadrants of dog training. Positive/negative, positive/positive, negative/positive, and negative/ negative. Once a persone understands how they work and when to use them the magic happens that and being able to read the dog.

If you tell the dog no or use a check cord you are not 100% +p.

Cornerstone is not a 100% +p program I have listen to Barton enough it’s just a collar free program but now they have partnered with Lyle Stienman and Clark Kennington and have the hunt test guide program so Barton understands if you want a higher level of dog you need a different type of program.

So if you look at it from a retrieving stand point. You need to figure out what’s what and how your re enforcing the correct behavior or correcting for a bad behavior.

As for how he holds the bumper I know a lot of fc that will do the that but hold birds just fine. Pick the battles and that’s one I would just roll with and over time I bet it corrects its self.

 

[KurtR]

Also important to keep expectations low for the first two years. Dog’s mature and we have unrealistic expectations of 1 year old dogs. I’ve sat in alot of duck blinds, many with guides who do it all season long, and have yet to see the magical YouTube dog who doesn’t occasional break. Same with hand signals. Dog is built with a superhuman nose, it’s a whole lot easier to rely on that than looking like a jackass blowing a whistle looking like an nfl ref doing fancy hand signals outside of the blind.

If you have a dog that doesn’t handle well I agree but watching one handle to a 300 yard blind on a bird that sailed off is a thing of beauty. You can tell the dogs that have been taught to mark with their eyes and then use their nose for a short smart hunt.

If you want your dog to break just say he doesn’t break they are good at making a liar out of a guy. So I’m not saying nothing.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

A lot of people are confused on what 100% positive training . A balanced trainer will use all four quadrants of dog training. Positive/negative, positive/positive, negative/positive, and negative/ negative. Once a persone understands how they work and when to use them the magic happens that and being able to read the dog.

If you tell the dog no or use a check cord you are not 100% +p.

It's correcting blatant disobedience that I haven't really figured out. like when I know for sure he knows what I'm asking like on a basic marked retrieve or just a simple recall and he chooses not to.

I try just making him redo it until he gets it right and that does seem to help.

Saying no helps sometimes on lesser mistakes.

Hollering at him and getting down in his face like Josh does on 52+ to violet honestly doesn't seem to work with my dog. Makes him lose interest in training. He doesn't get scared or anything he just seems to get more stubborn when I do that.

he's super food driven and moving away from rewards and the clicker has proven to be a very slow and ongoing process.

 

[KurtR]

It's correcting blatant disobedience that I haven't really figured out. like when I know for sure he knows what I'm asking like on a basic marked retrieve or just a simple recall and he chooses not to.

I try just making him redo it until he gets it right and that does seem to help.

Saying no helps sometimes on lesser mistakes.

Hollering at him and getting down in his face like Josh does on 52+ to violet honestly doesn't seem to work with my dog. Makes him lose interest in training. He doesn't get scared or anything he just seems to get more stubborn when I do that.

he's super food driven and moving away from rewards and the clicker has proven to be a very slow and ongoing process.

What’s he doing on a mark that you think you need to correct for?

Do you have any HRC clubs in your area they could be really helpful



It’s all little building blocks and once you correct one something else is going to pop up don’t be discouraged that’s just dog training.