Corner Crossing (is any hunter against it?)

[wapitibob]

Did you also check with the local sheriff for the unit you will be hunting? You can still be charged with trespassing, although a lesser charge than by a GW is my understanding, by the sheriff they just wont take your gear.

A Deputy can't cite for game violations in WY. The Chief told me a deputy could cite but then rattled off the list of conditions that needed to be met to convict for criminal trespass and said I would need to purposely trespass, after having known that I was on private. Although a deputy could cite, the DA would need to prosecute and that doesn't happen. A call to that county da office and the question was asked "do you prosecute for corner crossing" was met with an "absolutely we do". The second question was "please provide a case number for a corner crossing case" and the conversation was ended quickly as they had no case number and don't prosecute.

Bottom line was, cross from corner to corner, record your track, and stay out of the private. My first day there I talked at length with the local warden and he said the same thing. He had cited a cpl hunters who "corner crossed" and after looking at their gps track, didn't cross at the corner and actually button hooked into the private to hunt it. Blatant trespassing with intent to hunt private and they were cited by the warden as they should have been.

 

[ramont]

Here I drew it for you.
The white shaded represents the private sections. The blue X represent BLM, USFS etc.
you step from blue x to blue x. Don’t touch white.

There’s an argument to be made that you’re in temporary aerial trespass. But some argue that to trespass there has to be 1)intent 2) damages.


View attachment 110227

You guys need to expend just a little effort and research some of your claims rather than just try to force everyone to agree with your unfounded opinions.

Corner Crossing is Tresspassing and that includes crossing the airspace above the ground.

US Supreme Court: United States v. Causby in 1946.
The court's decision, authored by Justice William O. Douglas...opined on what airspace landowners do and do not own. He wrote that "if the landowner is to have full enjoyment of the land, he must have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere. Otherwise buildings could not be erected, trees could not be planted, and even fences could not be run". Thus, a landowner "owns at least as much of the space above the ground as he can occupy or use in connection with the land," and invasions of that airspace "are in the same category as invasions of the surface". There are many resources on the Internet that explain the rights of land owners to the airspace above their private property, this link is one.

Most people wont make the effort to accurately cross at the exact corner and if they don't cross at the exact corner then they will physically step on private property in addition to violating the airspace above the private property, both of which are tresspassing. Additionally, while one person crossing one time at any point will cause very little damage (if any), hundreds of people crossing at that point over several years will cause an accumulation of small damages that eventually will be a major change on the land. Not everybody will be considerate of the land and try to cause as little damage as possible, in fact, most people wont care, they will just do what ever they need to do in order to satisfy their desire to get through the area.

In the end, under the law, it is tresspassing when you violate the private property rights of a land owner. While there have been no legal precedence setting cases of corner crossing, I'm sure that when one goes to court the land owners will win - if he can prove any damage to his property.

You have to separate your emotions and selfishness from the letter of the law because if you ever end up in court the law wont care that you think that your conviction is unfair. I support crossing in a legal way and I do agree that the law needs to change in order to create legal crossing points for public land access but until that happens I also know that human beings, being what they are, will abuse corner crossings and cause problems for land owners. I mentioned that people have traveled down my property in order to cross in to public land, while that doesn't fit the legal definition of corner crossing, it does however prove that people will carry things too far. One person feels that corner crossing is OK, the next feels that crossing within a few feet of the actual corner is OK, the next guy feels that if it's OK to cross a few feet from the corner then it's OK to cross a few yards from the corner...on and on until you have guys driving across private property where ever and when ever they want in order to get to public lands. And the sad reality is that in order for me to win a tresspassing case in court I have to avoid the possibility of the other side saying that I let other people do it so I have to let this guy do it - that means that I have to deny everybody access or set a precedence of allowing people to cross by direct permission (which I have no problem with).

 

[wapitibob]

Despite Ramont's legal interpretation, It's virtually impossible to get a ticket when crossing at this corner...

 

[Btaylor]

Access easements would be great, but would you advocate the government (us) pay for them? Or just confiscate the private property through eminent domain without compensation?

There is a sweet piece of land for sale near me that borders BLM land, unfortunately no recorded easement, it’s landlocked by private property on two sides and BLM on the others. Should the other private owners or BLM be forced to provide an easement to that land?

Personally, I would take via eminent domain but done with a property tax credit. And like I mentioned earlier that would be for like a 5 yard deep corner wedge on each side of the corner marker to create a 10 yard wide easement. That size is to make easily identifiable on foot and also would be sufficient to locate on mapping software so there is no debate if you are caught off of the easement. No excuses and no warnings, you get a big fine and lose hunting rights. Thats the skin in the game for the public.

 

[MtGomer]

You guys need to expend just a little effort and research some of your claims rather than just try to force everyone to agree with your unfounded opinions.

Corner Crossing is Tresspassing and that includes crossing the airspace above the ground.

US Supreme Court: United States v. Causby in 1946.
The court's decision, authored by Justice William O. Douglas...opined on what airspace landowners do and do not own. He wrote that "if the landowner is to have full enjoyment of the land, he must have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere. Otherwise buildings could not be erected, trees could not be planted, and even fences could not be run". Thus, a landowner "owns at least as much of the space above the ground as he can occupy or use in connection with the land," and invasions of that airspace "are in the same category as invasions of the surface". There are many resources on the Internet that explain the rights of land owners to the airspace above their private property, this link is one.

Most people wont make the effort to accurately cross at the exact corner and if they don't cross at the exact corner then they will physically step on private property in addition to violating the airspace above the private property, both of which are tresspassing. Additionally, while one person crossing one time at any point will cause very little damage (if any), hundreds of people crossing at that point over several years will cause an accumulation of small damages that eventually will be a major change on the land. Not everybody will be considerate of the land and try to cause as little damage as possible, in fact, most people wont care, they will just do what ever they need to do in order to satisfy their desire to get through the area.

In the end, under the law, it is tresspassing when you violate the private property rights of a land owner. While there have been no legal precedence setting cases of corner crossing, I'm sure that when one goes to court the land owners will win - if he can prove any damage to his property.

You have to separate your emotions and selfishness from the letter of the law because if you ever end up in court the law wont care that you think that your conviction is unfair. I support crossing in a legal way and I do agree that the law needs to change in order to create legal crossing points for public land access but until that happens I also know that human beings, being what they are, will abuse corner crossings and cause problems for land owners. I mentioned that people have traveled down my property in order to cross in to public land, while that doesn't fit the legal definition of corner crossing, it does however prove that people will carry things too far. One person feels that corner crossing is OK, the next feels that crossing within a few feet of the actual corner is OK, the next guy feels that if it's OK to cross a few feet from the corner then it's OK to cross a few yards from the corner...on and on until you have guys driving across private property where ever and when ever they want in order to get to public lands. And the sad reality is that in order for me to win a tresspassing case in court I have to avoid the possibility of the other side saying that I let other people do it so I have to let this guy do it - that means that I have to deny everybody access or set a precedence of allowing people to cross by direct permission (which I have no problem with).

There is too many assumptions, half truths, mistruths and irrelevant opine wrapped into one comment to address it all right now as I’m getting gas, but the slippery slope that it could lead to trespassing has no bearing on the topic.

Not trespassing or almost trespassing can’t be banned because of the speculation it may lead to trespassing.

Just to be clear... legally, corner crossing in most jurisdictions is a gray area. It is NOT trespassing, nor is it not not trespassing.


I’m curious... what do you do for a living?

 

[DenverCountryBoy]

Access easements would be great, but would you advocate the government (us) pay for them? Or just confiscate the private property through eminent domain without compensation?

There is a sweet piece of land for sale near me that borders BLM land, unfortunately no recorded easement, it’s landlocked by private property on two sides and BLM on the others. Should the other private owners or BLM be forced to provide an easement to that land?

I thought eminent domain takings by law required repairations at market value.

 

[MattB]

If a corner was crossed and there is no Aggrieved Party, the idea that it’s crime is ridiculous.

Like drunk driving? There are a number of examples in law where a particular act is illegal even if no one is harmed.

 

[Felix40]

One more reason NM is a great state to live in for hunting. Cross corners all you want with no issues here.

 

[pacoalcracker]

There should be a ruling where a fence of any kind cannot be closer than 5' or 10' to another's land, government owned or otherwise. The majority of cities, townships and municipalities already have these laws on the books and it should be extended to all properties nationwide. That would clear up this issue pretty quickly. Ranchers and other large landowners are just greedy, using every law(and some made up)on the books to keep landlocked public land for themselves and it certainly makes their property more valuable. Well, if it makes their property more valuable, then they should pay the requisite TAXES on those additional thousands or many thousands of acres.....I bet it wouldn't take long then for them to be a bit lenient on the public wanting to walk on public land. Maybe this should be presented to Trump?

 

[Pro953]

Despite Ramont's legal interpretation, It's virtually impossible to get a ticket when crossing at this corner...


View attachment 110354

How so?


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[yeti14]

You're walking down a public sidewalk and reach your hand out to wave to a friend. Your hand crosses into "private property air space" over a grass lawn. Does anyone really have issue with this or believe it should be construed as trespassing? This is no different than hopping from public to public and a body part invading "private air space".

 

[wapitibob]

How so?


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Deputies won't write a ticket because the DA won't prosecute.

My corner crossing advise has always been, call the people in charge and get your questions answered directly.

 

[HvyBeams]

I like case law as it gives some insight to how a court would look at a particular case. However, one would have to wonder if it is illegal, why aren't there hundreds to thousands of cases filed each year for corner crossing. Here are my guesses: 1) District Attorneys like being elected. 2) Depending on how the law is written, it would be virtual impossible to get a conviction. 3) They have better things to prosecute than a guy trying to access public land. 4) District Attorneys may feel the case law cited above is not applicable to a different set of facts such as corner crossing. Unless you're corner crossing in a jet airplane.

 

[Trial153]

Ah... in United States v. Causby, causby proved he was an aggrived party because the infrgment prevented him from chicken farming on his property. In other words proved there were damages.
Good luck proving damages in corner crossing. Even prosecutors have some common sense.

 

[Middleofnowhere]

I thought eminent domain takings by law required repairations at market value.

Yes, compensation is generally required to “take” property. However, through ordinance or regulation, and easement can be taken or forced. For instance, requiring the property owners to have a 5’ fence set back from PL as some have suggested. I could have worded my questions better.

It’s a slippery slope imo.

 

[Rmauch20]

After looking up Wyoming’s criminal trespass statute, I’ll assume is what the Deputy would site you with. You’re getting into gray area.
1. Unless the corner is pinned with surveyor’s marker (Even those could be moved) I think the landowner and the county Ca/Da would have a difficult time proving where the true corner is. Fence posts don’t cut it as property line markers.
2. They would have to prove that you intentionally entered onto the property.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wy...er-trespass-laws-at-agricultures-request/amp/

Pretty good article

 

[Trial153]

Like drunk driving? There are a number of examples in law where a particular act is illegal even if no one is harmed.

Criminal actions are considered a crime against the state. So by their nature already have a named aggrieved party!! Whichever state the crime took place is and would be summarily be Prosecuting the case is the aggrived party!

I find it hard to believe that a state prosecutor in the vast majority of instances would willingly want to try to prove corner crossing was an act of criminal trespass. If in fact the only action by the accused was a public to public crossing.

 

[Trial153]

After looking up Wyoming’s criminal trespass statute, I’ll assume is what the Deputy would site you with. You’re getting into gray area.
1. Unless the corner is pinned with surveyor’s marker (Even those could be moved) I think the landowner in the state would have a difficult time proving where the true corner is. Fence posts don’t cut it at the property line marker.
2. They would have to prove that you intentionally entered onto the property.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wy...er-trespass-laws-at-agricultures-request/amp/

Pretty good article

Agree good article. It cuts both ways. If they arent amenable to allow the same technology to facilitate access to our public lands then this is nothing but a facade to continue defacto private use and ownership.

So if by its nature you inflicted damages knowingly through the act of crossing a public to public corner woudlnt the same damages occur at the same corner via a private to private crossing? especially in if the private crossing was for a commercial venture like farming or ranching.

You cant have your cake and eat to, Well unless you have money to lobby the government...

 

[Pro953]

I guess my whole point to participating in this thread is.

- It is trespassing. While the sheriff, game warden, prosecutor may choose to not enforce it, that does not mean the act is not a violation of the law as it is written.

- While lack of enforcement may mean you can corner cross without being charged. Owners of large tracts of land are often folks of means. All it takes is for you to be the hunter that a landowner decides to make a example of and they can bury you in legal hassles.

- I would LOVE to be able to corner cross, but due to comment number two above I will not corner cross until it is defined as legal or dealt with via easement, land swap or access program that respects the landowner as well.



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[Rmauch20]

I guess my whole point to participating in this thread is.

- It is trespassing. While the sheriff, game warden, prosecutor may choose to not enforce it, that does not mean the act is not a violation of the law as it is written.

1. If it was a violation of the law as it’s written people would be getting charged for it. There’s a reason people are not getting charged for it.

- While lack of enforcement may mean you can corner cross without being charged. Owners of large tracts of land are often folks of means. All it takes is for you to be the hunter that a landowner decides to make a example of and they can bury you in legal hassles.

2.That would be a total waste of time and their money to go after someone for civil property damages from corner crossing. They would be pissing into the wind. If anyone can find a case where someone was sued in civil court for corner crossing and causing property property damages I would love to read about it.

- I would LOVE to be able to corner cross, but due to comment number two above I will not corner cross until it is defined as legal or dealt with via easement, land swap or access program that respects the landowner as well.



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