Colorado Preference Point Focus Group

[cnelk]

Naw they don’t have anything to do w it. Since you forgot - the “elk only” cba were the single reason that archery mule deer hunt lost the best 5-6 days of hunting degrading the hunt and causing extreme overcrowding.

Driving a spike between deer and elk hunters. But hey screw the deer hunter right? As long as non resident elk hunters are happy carry on ….

Spade is still a spade man… Thanks again Colorado Bowhunters Ass!!

Since you forgot, the CPW sets season dates and tag allotments, and all regulations - not the CBA.

You really should brush up on stuff. And pull the the stick out

 

[street]

Anyone who turns back a tag shouldn't be able to get a tag for that species off the leftover that year.

 

[Nickofthewoods]

Not sure about taking someone to zero for any hunt.

This is something I've always disliked. Why is point banking not allowed? If I have 4 points and I want to use 1 of those points to draw a hunt why do I have to lose all of my points? If I have $100 dollars in a bank account and I buy something for $20 I wouldn't lose all of my money in that account. As a customer of CPW I don't like the "use one lose them all" policy. Wouldn't this also help reduce point creep?

Another thing I dislike is not being able to retroactively gain a point if I need to cancel my hunt and get my points restored. So if I draw a tag using my points and then I end up having to turn that tag back in and get my points restored, I can't also gain a point for that year like I would have if I just applied for a preference point to begin with. Let's say I had 10 points and drew the tag I wanted but then had to cancel my hunt, I would get my 10 points back but I couldn't also get an 11th point like I could have if I had just applied for a preference point as my first option in the draw. Why should I get penalized a chance at another point because I needed to cancel? I asked this question to a CPW hunt planner that said it wasn't possible so if it is possible and he didn't understand my question I would love to hear about it from someone.

In summary, as a Colorado resident I dislike how little control I have to do what I wish with my preference points.

 

[realunlucky]

This is something I've always disliked. Why is point banking not allowed? If I have 4 points and I want to use 1 of those points to draw a hunt why do I have to lose all of my points? If I have $100 dollars in a bank account and I buy something for $20 I wouldn't lose all of my money in that account. As a customer of CPW I don't like the "use one lose them all" policy. Wouldn't this also help reduce point creep?

Another thing I dislike is not being able to retroactively gain a point if I need to cancel my hunt and get my points restored. So if I draw a tag using my points and then I end up having to turn that tag back in and get my points restored, I can't also gain a point for that year like I would have if I just applied for a preference point to begin with. Let's say I had 10 points and drew the tag I wanted but then had to cancel my hunt, I would get my 10 points back but I couldn't also get an 11th point like I could have if I had just applied for a preference point as my first option in the draw. Why should I get penalized a chance at another point because I needed to cancel? I asked this question to a CPW hunt planner that said it wasn't possible so if it is possible and he didn't understand my question I would love to hear about it from someone.

In summary, as a Colorado resident I dislike how little control I have to do what I wish with my preference points.

That's exactly why that was implemented to discourage someone from turning a tag back, but understanding life happens they still offer a way to restore your previous points.

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[sndmn11]

This is something I've always disliked. Why is point banking not allowed? If I have 4 points and I want to use 1 of those points to draw a hunt why do I have to lose all of my points? If I have $100 dollars in a bank account and I buy something for $20 I wouldn't lose all of my money in that account. As a customer of CPW I don't like the "use one lose them all" policy. Wouldn't this also help reduce point creep?

Another thing I dislike is not being able to retroactively gain a point if I need to cancel my hunt and get my points restored. So if I draw a tag using my points and then I end up having to turn that tag back in and get my points restored, I can't also gain a point for that year like I would have if I just applied for a preference point to begin with. Let's say I had 10 points and drew the tag I wanted but then had to cancel my hunt, I would get my 10 points back but I couldn't also get an 11th point like I could have if I had just applied for a preference point as my first option in the draw. Why should I get penalized a chance at another point because I needed to cancel? I asked this question to a CPW hunt planner that said it wasn't possible so if it is possible and he didn't understand my question I would love to hear about it from someone.

In summary, as a Colorado resident I dislike how little control I have to do what I wish with my preference points.

Then you would end up with people drawing the tag, and then religiously turning it back in to earn a point if they can't turn up an animal they feel is worthy during the summer.

I don't think you should get any points or $ back if you turn a tag back in.

 

[realunlucky]

Then you would end up with people drawing the tag, and then religiously turning it back in to earn a point if they can't turn up an animal they feel is worthy during the summer.

I don't think you should get any points or $ back if you turn a tag back in.

I listened to an epic podcast where that was basically their advice before the change. Draw then turn back for whatever reason because your not out anything and can always draw again next year.

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[sndmn11]

I listened to an epic podcast where that was basically their advice before the change. Draw then turn back for whatever reason because your not out anything and can always draw again next year.

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As long as you are a bit ahead of the needed points it is a good strategy within the current rules. I had one customer with a fourth season CO muley tag in 2018 I think who had a buck picked out for two years prior. Thing got shot in the archery season as he was watching (scouting religiously) and he had his tag turned in the next day. I am pretty sure he hasn't used those points yet.

 

[Holski]

As a Colorado resident with 11 pts.

- Give everyone 3 seasons for everyone to burn their points then do away with points all together and go to a random draw.

- Cap OTC and make them unit specific

- CPW wants the money from non-resident hunters I get it. Make it a 85/15 split and bump up costs (even resident tags)

Personally I would be ok if they said next year points are gone and its totally random. I wouldn't benefit but I also know I wont see any SS money even though I'll pay it for the rest of my life. It is what it is, take it on the chin and move on. Someone has to sacrifice, do it now and help the future.

 

[lak2004]

As a Colorado resident with 11 pts.

- Give everyone 3 seasons for everyone to burn their points then do away with points all together and go to a random draw.

- Cap OTC and make them unit specific

- CPW wants the money from non-resident hunters I get it. Make it a 85/15 split and bump up costs (even resident tags)

Personally I would be ok if they said next year points are gone and its totally random. I wouldn't benefit but I also know I wont see any SS money even though I'll pay it for the rest of my life. It is what it is, take it on the chin and move on. Someone has to sacrifice, do it now and help the future.

I think the same. I'll lose out a bit, but my kids will have a hell of a lot better chance of some quality hunts with a random draw.

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[Ucsdryder]

This is something I've always disliked. Why is point banking not allowed? If I have 4 points and I want to use 1 of those points to draw a hunt why do I have to lose all of my points? If I have $100 dollars in a bank account and I buy something for $20 I wouldn't lose all of my money in that account. As a customer of CPW I don't like the "use one lose them all" policy. Wouldn't this also help reduce point creep?

Another thing I dislike is not being able to retroactively gain a point if I need to cancel my hunt and get my points restored. So if I draw a tag using my points and then I end up having to turn that tag back in and get my points restored, I can't also gain a point for that year like I would have if I just applied for a preference point to begin with. Let's say I had 10 points and drew the tag I wanted but then had to cancel my hunt, I would get my 10 points back but I couldn't also get an 11th point like I could have if I had just applied for a preference point as my first option in the draw. Why should I get penalized a chance at another point because I needed to cancel? I asked this question to a CPW hunt planner that said it wasn't possible so if it is possible and he didn't understand my question I would love to hear about it from someone.

In summary, as a Colorado resident I dislike how little control I have to do what I wish with my preference points.

Don’t take this the wrong way but…I hate all your ideas.

 

[Ucsdryder]

As a Colorado resident with 11 pts.

- Give everyone 3 seasons for everyone to burn their points then do away with points all together and go to a random draw.

- Cap OTC and make them unit specific

- CPW wants the money from non-resident hunters I get it. Make it a 85/15 split and bump up costs (even resident tags)

Personally I would be ok if they said next year points are gone and its totally random. I wouldn't benefit but I also know I wont see any SS money even though I'll pay it for the rest of my life. It is what it is, take it on the chin and move on. Someone has to sacrifice, do it now and help the future.

Holski for president. Seriously though….I’ve been preaching the same thing. And burn ALL points if you get a tag, leftover or turn back.

 

[Shane S]

Bonus point system instead of preference points seems like the only way out without pissing off a ton of people. Id think most would rather play the odds opposed to knowing that there are many tags that can’t statistically be caught in a lifetime of applications. You are going to upset the top 1% of point holders but I even bet some of them are chasing units that go up a point every year.

I don’t like Wyoming or Arizona hybrid draw. Odds are just too stiff in random draws and it just results in less tags and more point creep for point holders.


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[Shane S]

We need a percentage of tags allocated to a random draw. Think WY or AZ.

The hybrid draw is a step, but not inclusive enough imo.

All tags issued by draw only.

Mandatory reporting.

Random draw allocation results in more point creep in a hybrid system. Look at the point creep in these two states. It’s sooo out of control! I started applying for a targeting a 4 point elk tag in Wyoming 9 years ago and now it’s an 11 point tag. Same stuff in Arizona. I’d be more interested in 100% random, or move to 100% bonus points.


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[ShakeDown]

Random draw allocation results in more point creep in a hybrid system. Look at the point creep in these two states. It’s sooo out of control! I started applying for a targeting a 4 point elk tag in Wyoming 9 years ago and now it’s an 11 point tag. Same stuff in Arizona. I’d be more interested in 100% random, or move to 100% bonus points.


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I am not sure correlation is causation as you suggest.

I do agree that a totally random draw system is best, IE NM or ID. But that is not realistic in CO.

 

[Nickofthewoods]

Then you would end up with people drawing the tag, and then religiously turning it back in to earn a point if they can't turn up an animal they feel is worthy during the summer.

I don't think you should get any points or $ back if you turn a tag back in.

I don't have much to add except that this kind of thing makes me tilt slightly in favor of the pure lottery system.

Don’t take this the wrong way but…I hate all your ideas.

Haha thanks for your honesty! I'm aware there are reasons these ideas wouldn't work even though I wish they would. This year I applied for an elk hunt in Colorado that will take my points but also applied for some really good Elk hunts in New Mexico. I won't be able to do both so if I draw in New Mexico I will turn my Colorado tag back in and forfeit gaining a point this year. It will not be because I'm out scouting trying to locate a trophy in the preseason.

Why not point banking though? Point creep is already a problem that's getting worse. I'd like to hear some good argument points both for and against point banking.

 

[Shane S]

Random draw allocation results in more point creep in a hybrid system. Look at the point creep in these two states. It’s sooo out of control! I started applying for a targeting a 4 point elk tag in Wyoming 9 years ago and now it’s an 11 point tag. Same stuff in Arizona. I’d be more interested in 100% random, or move to 100% bonus points.


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Agreed. Not the only reason for the problem by any means. But I did see hunts jump a point or two when Arizona added the random draw component.


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[sndmn11]

I don't have much to add except that this kind of thing makes me tilt slightly in favor of the pure lottery system.


Haha thanks for your honesty! I'm aware there are reasons these ideas wouldn't work even though I wish they would. This year I applied for an elk hunt in Colorado that will take my points but also applied for some really good Elk hunts in New Mexico. I won't be able to do both so if I draw in New Mexico I will turn my Colorado tag back in and forfeit gaining a point this year. It will not be because I'm out scouting trying to locate a trophy in the preseason.

Why not point banking though? Point creep is already a problem that's getting worse. I'd like to hear some good argument points both for and against point banking.

Your scenario is exactly why I like preference points. You have no idea if you will draw NM, but it throws a monkey in your plans if you do. However, you are very confident you will draw here.

While we don't hunt out of state, we plan out different species in CO because of our confidence in points. My wife, dad, brother, and I can coordinate so that nobody has to skip a good hunt because the other drew a good hunt. If it were all random, we might have no plans, or all overlapping plans.

Point banking is believed to accelerate creep because you then have the potential for high point holders to be enticed into using just enough to get the hunt code. Just enough would be one more than drawn out at, and that would lead to the increase. I think it would also bring about uncertainty in large jumps of needed points.

 

[Finn16]

I don't have much to add except that this kind of thing makes me tilt slightly in favor of the pure lottery system.


Haha thanks for your honesty! I'm aware there are reasons these ideas wouldn't work even though I wish they would. This year I applied for an elk hunt in Colorado that will take my points but also applied for some really good Elk hunts in New Mexico. I won't be able to do both so if I draw in New Mexico I will turn my Colorado tag back in and forfeit gaining a point this year. It will not be because I'm out scouting trying to locate a trophy in the preseason.

Why not point banking though? Point creep is already a problem that's getting worse. I'd like to hear some good argument points both for and against point banking.

On the point banking question above.

What happens in the scenario below?
- a unit has 50 tags and normally takes 3 points to draw (prior to point banking)
- the system then switches to point banking and 50 applicants with 7 points or more apply as do a pile of others with less points

Do all 50 applicants with 7 or more points get the tags and it becomes a 7 point unit that year?

I think point banking could really create a lot of point creep in the low to mid-tier units when guys with a bunch of points decide they are giving up on the top units and instead plan to use their points on lesser units multiple years. If you have been able to draw a unit every two years, that may no longer be the case as people with a bunch of points may start applying in your unit and get drawn 4 or 5 years in a row while you do not.

As a side note: the last time we had point banking they took one more point than was needed to draw. For example if it took 3 points to draw and you had 10 points, they took 4 and left you with 6.

 

[5MilesBack]

I think the same. I'll lose out a bit, but my kids will have a hell of a lot better chance of some quality hunts with a random draw.

Not necessarily. With a random draw, your kids could potentially NEVER draw a quality tag. My 21 year old daughter got a great tag 5 years ago with points and is already preparing to draw another one in the next year or two. With a random draw I really doubt that she would have a better chance, or even "as good" a chance.

Especially for NR's......can you imagine if everything was random draw? Right now most NR's know what they can and can't draw so apply accordingly. But if points went away and it was random you'd now have exponentially more people putting in for the higher quality tags since "they have that chance"........however small it is.

 

[sndmn11]

Maybe since there are four rifle seasons, they should have two be lottery and two be points? Lottery draws take any points you have as well, but do not earn any points. The next year switch which seasons are points/lottery; odd years means 1/3 season are draw even year means 2/4 is draw.

Then everyone gets what they want