Colorado Lead-Free Pilot Program

[MTMH14]

The first thing we should be as hunters is conservationist. The link to using lead bullets and lead poisoning in raptors has been well established. In my opinion, it would be better for hunters to lead the way by choosing to use lead free ammo as a concerned conservationist who care about the entire ecosystem. As opposed to being mandated to do so by the state. This would show we as hunters care about the ecosystem that we interact with as well as take away the ammunition so to speak of anti- hunters harping on lead bullets. Who only get to enjoy the public lands because of our license fees and Pittman/Roberson funds from taxes on hunting and fishing equipment.

Here are a few links from a guy I know here in Montana who has done some great studies on lead bullets and raptors. He sends out a newsletter every few months if you’re interested in signing up to receive it.

Mike McTee

Mike McTee is a researcher at MPG Ranch and the author of Wilted Wings: A Hunter’s Fight for Eagles. Mike shot his first weapon before he could recite the alphabet. Now, understanding weapons is part of his job. His career took this trajectory after Mike gained a B.S. in Environmental Chemistry...

www.mpgranch.com

Montana's Nonlead Newsletter–Winter 2025

Anyways, that’s my 2 cents.

 

[displacedtexan]

I'm certainly not in favor of a ban on lead...

But the unfortunate reality is that regulations frequently drive innovation. Modern heavier than lead waterfowl loads and fuel injection/turbocharging come readily to mind.

I'm a little hypocritical saying this... But would us voluntarily buying copper bullets show that there's a market and drive manufacturers to find a way to make lead free bullets that outperform the stuff we think is killing great now?

 

[TaperPin]

When I read lead bullets are a God-given right it made me laugh out loud.

People complain about everything. If all the birds of prey or scavengers were gone the same people would complain there’s too many rodents and the department of wildlife should do something.

Operation normal. Carry on.

 

[TaperPin]

This is the generation of me, me, me, me, me. Conservation only matters if it benefits me. Me, me, me.

Sorry, but if a few slob hunters stayed home, so there are more owls, eagles and hawks I view that as a win. “Eagles are nothing more than seagulls?” WTF.

 

[displacedtexan]

When I read lead bullets are a God-given right it made me laugh out loud.

People complain about everything. If all the birds of prey or scavengers were gone the same people would complain there’s too many rodents and the department of wildlife should do something.

Operation normal. Carry on.

Look, if God didn't intend us to hunt with lead bullets, why did he create the lead bullet trees?

 

[ElPollo]

Quite a bit. Thousands of microfragments of lead are created every time a bullet moving over 2K FPS impacts an animal, and they are concentrated into a gut pile that enters the food chain through scavenging. Blood lead levels of scavenging birds have been proven to increase during hunting season. Using lead free ammo for big game hunting eliminates this issue.

That being said, these commie states like CO and CA mandating changes to the way we hunt is obviously a slippery slope. Honestly a tough situation though, because there is obviously an issue. If you have questions about switching, feel free to shoot me a PM- I've been shooting exclusively copper with great results for a decade

I had a couple of former employees that worked on the Beringia lead studies back in the day. The hard part about evaluating this study is that lead is that there are lots of sources for lead contamination in the environment. This study didn’t evaluate any of those. It was merely a correlative study that said there is lead here and lead here with the assumption that lead from the hunter kills was the source of lead in the raptors. It also didn’t really evaluate the effect size on the raptor populations. Not saying they are wrong, just saying that a paper like this results in more questions than answers and shouldn’t be taken as a reason to make overarching policy changes.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

Just one more reason why I'm about to move out of this state.

Polis
Property tax raised
Housing prices high
Rent is astronomical
Small businesses closing at alarming rates
Homelessness out of control
Illegal immigrants out of control
Road condition in shambles
Road construction at a snails pace
Wolf failure that is $2 million over budget so far
Gun and ammunition tax raised
Ban on certain guns
All of the "Oppressed" alphabet people of infinite makes and models that want to groom the children
Let's not forget the Gay Games in 2030!!

Then in November there is a ballot to seek $1 billion dollars from the tax payers without raising taxes!!! Apparently it just comes from trees

This used to be a great place to live. But alas people wanted legal Marijuana which was the jump start of this bullshiiiit

 

[ElPollo]

I've actually done some stuff with the long time head biologist at the Sutton Center. I really blew my mind how much lead fragments. Even cup and core bullets.

He's a hunter, very pro 2a and small government. Also very pro not hunting with lead.

Lead-poisoning of Eagles – Sutton Center https://www.suttoncenter.org/conservation/saving-species/bald-eagles/lead-poisoning-eagles/

Are you talking about Don Wolfe?

 

[FredH]

Just one more reason why I'm about to move out of this state.

Polis
Property tax raised
Housing prices high
Rent is astronomical
Small businesses closing at alarming rates
Homelessness out of control
Illegal immigrants out of control
Road condition in shambles
Road construction at a snails pace
Wolf failure that is $2 million over budget so far
Gun and ammunition tax raised
Ban on certain guns
All of the "Oppressed" alphabet people of infinite makes and models that want to groom the children
Let's not forget the Gay Games in 2030!!

Then in November there is a ballot to seek $1 billion dollars from the tax payers without raising taxes!!! Apparently it just comes from trees

This used to be a great place to live. But alas people wanted legal Marijuana which was the jump start of this bullshiiiit

My sister lived in Colorado Springs for a decade from just before pot was made legal. It was cool at first, drew in some interesting people but those jerks voted the state Blue and made it so the cops did virtually nothing. She had her home burglarized, some guns were stolen plus some gold coins. Reported the crime and in 5 days they had caught the guy, had her guns but the gold? Who knows. The sticker they didn't hold the guy overnight. Took then 2 years to return her guns. She was never asked to go to court to identify her property so I guess he never went to court even. The jump start to the BS began when people started fleeing California for Colorado.

 

[displacedtexan]

Are you talking about Don Wolfe?

Yep. I like Don.

 

[OXN939]

I had a couple of former employees that worked on the Beringia lead studies back in the day. The hard part about evaluating this study is that lead is that there are lots of sources for lead contamination in the environment. This study didn’t evaluate any of those. It was merely a correlative study that said there is lead here and lead here with the assumption that lead from the hunter kills was the source of lead in the raptors. It also didn’t really evaluate the effect size on the raptor populations. Not saying they are wrong, just saying that a paper like this results in more questions than answers and shouldn’t be taken as a reason to make overarching policy changes.

100% with ya. So many real world variables with a study like that it's easy to make conclusions sound more direct than they are.

What is pretty easy to see, though, is the writing on the wall for our sport at large. People have started to get really interested in hunting since COVID, specifically in understanding our perspective as outdoorsmen. It's clear to most people that lead does enter the food chain through bullets, and no matter what the real world fallout from that is, it seems like a really easy way for us to show the demographic that is reevaluating how they think about hunting that, hey, nobody cares about the resource like we do- which is why we do everything we can like shooting elad free to mitigate negative second order effects. It's really not very hard, and completely kneecaps the argument from the antis that we're a bunch of rednecks who don't understand ecology or care for the environment.

 

[nm.otter]

Last year I tried copper with my 6.5 creed. Learned a lesson from that. 6.5 and copper dont mix. It is too fast and at 80 yards i shot a buck a bit behind the sweet spot and it just stood there.
...
All three of my copper 6.5 creed went in and out of the buck the same size hole.

"Too fast" seems a bit odd. What projectile?

 

[Bluumoon]

100% with ya. So many real world variables with a study like that it's easy to make conclusions sound more direct than they are.

What is pretty easy to see, though, is the writing on the wall for our sport at large. People have started to get really interested in hunting since COVID, specifically in understanding our perspective as outdoorsmen. It's clear to most people that lead does enter the food chain through bullets, and no matter what the real world fallout from that is, it seems like a really easy way for us to show the demographic that is reevaluating how they think about hunting that, hey, nobody cares about the resource like we do- which is why we do everything we can like shooting elad free to mitigate negative second order effects. It's really not very hard, and completely kneecaps the argument from the antis that we're a bunch of rednecks who don't understand ecology or care for the environment.

Or you can refuse to capitulate to unsound theories based on biased and poorly (kind way of saying it) formed conclusions.

Really we need to improve the general populations (and more importantly appointed board members) ability to evaluate studies design/merit and their conclusions rather than take on good faith that researchers are blindly forming hypothesis and presenting data w out bias.

If your research job/lively hood/phd depends on your study leading to further funding, might you portray your results (consciously or unconsciously) in a certain way?

 

[Bluumoon]

Here is an example of where a study completely fails apart , yet the "conclusion" of a primary review article ignores a major fault in the study and instead proposes increased compliance with the presupposition of the study would lead to different outcomes.

"60% of successful Kaibab deer hunters took lead reduction actions during their hunt, an increase of 10% from 2005. Even with this level of partici- pation, 95% of the birds were exposed to lead (Par- ish et al. 2009, this volume). One factor that is likely contributing to this continued high exposure is that the condors are increasing their use of south- ern Utah habitats (Figure 2). To date Utah has not implemented any extensive outreach or programs for raising awareness on this issue, but are working on plans to do this in 2009."

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/64d55b1bbed3ec770fdeb2fb/t/68486284c0e9a80a98e9f783/1749574276769/VOLUNTARY%E2%80%A9+LEAD%E2%80%A9+REDUCTION+%E2%80%A9EFFORTS.pdf

Bonus for the readers, you can start to see where some of the funding for the studies is coming from....

 

[hibernation]

Last year I tried copper with my 6.5 creed. Learned a lesson from that. 6.5 and copper dont mix. It is too fast and at 80 yards i shot a buck a bit behind the sweet spot and it just stood there. I took an additional shot and hit about 2 inches lower. The buck moved up the hill about 30 yards stopped and turned and looked back. Hit hit him again through the neck and he took off. Tracked him with my hunting partner and found him down next to a log. As we were about 10 yards from him he jumped up and took off my hunting buddy dropped him for good with a 300 win mag. All three of my copper 6.5 creed went in and out of the buck the same size hole.

What bullet/ammo? Too fast seems surprising for 6.5CM, they're usually not going all that fast to begin with compared to a lot of magnum cartridges.

Did you measure the exit hole? I took an elk with the 6.5CM and Barnes 127LRX, I thought the same thing when I saw the exit wound at first while skinning - that there was no expansion. Looked like a perfect pencil hole. Until I found the entry wound and could compare, it was still small but there was a clear difference. Probably expanded to around 150% caliber, so ~0.4" exit.

 

[hibernation]

And I honestly ask, what is so special about raptors that makes them the bird that everyone is so concerned about and obsessed with?

They're just cool man. I like seeing golden eagles when I'm out in the sagebrush the same way I like seeing elk, songbirds, mountains. You don't need to join the Audubon society and go full bird nerd to check out a kestrel perched on a powerline by a wheatfield.

 

[ElPollo]

Last year I tried copper with my 6.5 creed. Learned a lesson from that. 6.5 and copper dont mix. It is too fast and at 80 yards i shot a buck a bit behind the sweet spot and it just stood there. I took an additional shot and hit about 2 inches lower. The buck moved up the hill about 30 yards stopped and turned and looked back. Hit hit him again through the neck and he took off. Tracked him with my hunting partner and found him down next to a log. As we were about 10 yards from him he jumped up and took off my hunting buddy dropped him for good with a 300 win mag. All three of my copper 6.5 creed went in and out of the buck the same size hole.

Not all copper bullets are the same, but most of them require higher speeds to open, are less prone to fragment, and generally result in much smaller wound channels. If you are truly limited to non-lead, you may want to look at the DRT bullets. They tend to perform about like a Berger and probably have about a 2000 fps lower impact velocity for them to fragment. Probably the best available non lead bullet on the market right now.

 

[OXN939]

Or you can refuse to capitulate to unsound theories

My end state is actually the exact opposite of capitulation... If you gift the other team too many lay ups, you usually lose the game.

Look at waterfowl hunting and big game in California, then consider how things are going to be 20 years from now. Pretty sure that change is coming, no matter how any of us feel about it. The decision is simply whether you want to get ahead of it or get run over.

 

[Bluumoon]

Ugh. Let’s rephrase..

You must clean your rifle barrel.

Why ?

Because you must clean your rifle barrel .

Do I get more precision or longer barrel life?

The barrel cleaning companies and “common sense” say you must clean your rifle barrel.

But, don’t they have a vested interest in me cleaning my barrel?


If you can’t listen to reason we shall write a law saying you must clean your rifle barrel.

Wouldn’t that impede on personal choice to have a more stable and predictable barrel?

You shall now only be able to purchase a rifle with a cleaning rod and cleaning clause w purchase agreement .

 

[Bluumoon]

They're just cool man. I like seeing golden eagles when I'm out in the sagebrush the same way I like seeing elk, songbirds, mountains. You don't need to join the Audubon society and go full bird nerd to check out a kestrel perched on a powerline by a wheatfield.

Indeed they are cool (and abundant!) and they love prairie dog carrion year round (another issue w some of the studies). Turns out golden eagles are equally fond of prairie dogs as well. Ospreys and kestrels appear in near equal abundance in my little corner of the world. They are undeniably cool.