Colorado Lead-Free Pilot Program

[displacedtexan]

Lead shotgun shells are banned at our range in town. I quite expensive to shoot clays with steel, so I never go there anymore.

And is that their policy or the law?

 

[IdahoBeav]

This is the generation of me, me, me, me, me. Conservation only matters if it benefits me. Me, me, me.

Conservation and environmental concerns are not a new item. It's interesting how the previous generation spent decades creating the problems that exist today, and now they gripe, blame others, and support new restrictions as they leave the arena.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Conservation and environmental concerns are not a new item. It's interesting how the previous generation spent decades creating the problems that exist today, and now they gripe, blame others, and support new restrictions as they leave the arena.

Kind of like they did with manufacturing, housing, immigration… haha

 

[Q_Sertorius]

But the discussion isn't about a lead ban.

It's a lead ban on game.

I'm not supporting it, but it won't make practice ammo more expensive.

Nonsense. These laws go hand in hand with using environmental regulations to shut down shooting ranges.

And once you can no longer use lead ammo for hunting, that will be the wedge they use to get rid of all lead ammo. “It’s unsafe for hunting so it is unsafe for everything! Won’t someone think of the ground water? And the children?!”

There are millions of rounds stockpiled in this country. Do you think for a minute that a lot of interested parties would not want to make them all illegal in a heartbeat? Think of the profits for the ammunition manufacturers and tax collectors.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Q_Sertorius]

And is that their policy or the law?

It’s a policy driven by the need to comply with oppressive environmental regulations.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Hnthrdr]

Is any rifle ammo manufacturers pumping out a tungsten, zinc alloy or bismuth round that can mimic the explosive expansion we get from lead?

I think those are the front runners for soft/ dense/ non toxic metals, but really I think you start ingesting a bunch of those probably not ideal either… if say hornady could put something to market like that I think that many hunters would willing switch assuming it’s not 75$ a box…

 

[SouthPaw]

Is any rifle ammo manufacturers pumping out a tungsten, zinc alloy or bismuth round that can mimic the explosive expansion we get from lead?

I think those are the front runners for soft/ dense/ non toxic metals, but really I think you start ingesting a bunch of those probably not ideal either… if say hornady could put something to market like that I think that many hunters would willing switch assuming it’s not 75$ a box…

Yes. The DRT frangibles use a compressed core that contains copper and tungsten. They produce dramatic wounding like the popular match bullets often discussed here, and unlike copper monos they produce good wounding at low impact velocities. Their problem is in consistency and precision, as a compressed powdered core is less uniform or consistent than lead so precision suffers. They also don't have great BCs for those who want to shoot farther.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

I won't ever switch to copper unless I am forced to. This is a prime example;
-1st picture was with a 6.5 Grendel shooting a 123 grain ELDM
- 2nd and 3rd was with a 300 blackout shooting a 110 grain Barnes TacTX.

Even though the Barnes has a bigger cross section due to it being a 30 cal and impacted about 125-150 fps faster, the permanent crush cavity was still the size of a grown mans thumb. Where as the 123 ELDM left about a 50 cent piece through the deers lung. Every deer I have taken with monolithics have lead to the longest deaths unless I hit something that shuts off their CNS. I want the death of the animal to be quick not prolonged.

 

[Flyjunky]

Don't cry wolf when it's a coyote.

Acting like it's more than it is won't help.

If you want to be the side with facts on your side, be accurate.

What’s not accurate?

Has the raptor population increased or decreased over the past 40 years? Do windmills or lead from big game bullets kill more raptors.

Do the anti’s ever go back on their word or change the goal posts regarding hunting/gun/wildlife propositions?

 

[displacedtexan]

They're not trying to ban lead for target shooting.

Hyperbole doesn't lend credibility to your argument.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

Don't cry wolf when it's a coyote.

Acting like it's more than it is won't help.

If you want to be the side with facts on your side, be accurate.

So what is the purpose to the lead ban?

 

[Smithb9841]

They're not trying to ban lead for target shooting.

Hyperbole doesn't lend credibility to your argument.

Uhm actually California tried a few years back luckily it didn’t pass… so it’s not hyperbole.

 

[displacedtexan]

Uhm actually California tried a few years back luckily it didn’t pass… so it’s not hyperbole.

It's not what we're talking about here...

Why do so many gun guys love straw man arguments?

 

[Flyjunky]

It's not what we're talking about here...

Why do so many gun guys love straw man arguments?

I see you never answered either one of my questions, why?

Have raptor populations increased or decreased over the last 40 years? Do windmills or lead from big game bullets kill more birds?

 

[z987k]

Is any rifle ammo manufacturers pumping out a tungsten, zinc alloy or bismuth round that can mimic the explosive expansion we get from lead?

I think those are the front runners for soft/ dense/ non toxic metals, but really I think you start ingesting a bunch of those probably not ideal either… if say hornady could put something to market like that I think that many hunters would willing switch assuming it’s not 75$ a box…

Yes. Look 7 posts up from yours on this same page.

Norma also makes the evostrike, which is similar to the DRT bullet but with tin instead of Tungsten. DRT also makes powdered copper instead of tungsten that's cheaper.
The BC's are horrific due to the density of tin being so low, but for close range work it wouldn't matter.

 

[z987k]

And is that their policy or the law?

Fairly sure it's policy, but the range is right on a wetlands with lots of birds that is protected, so it's possible there's a regulation requiring that policy. I'm not sure. And it is government owned and operated. I've never seen anyone there on the shotgun range.
The next closest range has shotguns going all the time. Lead shells are fine there.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Yes. Look 7 posts up from yours on this same page.

Norma also makes the evostrike, which is similar to the DRT bullet but with tin instead of Tungsten. DRT also makes powdered copper instead of tungsten that's cheaper.
The BC's are horrific due to the density of tin being so low, but for close range work it wouldn't matter.

Must have missed them I’ll look at those yeah tungsten is probably the real answer too bad it’s so dang pricey

 

[displacedtexan]

I see you never answered either one of my questions, why?

Have raptor populations increased or decreased over the last 40 years? Do windmills or lead from big game bullets kill more birds?

Missed them...

They're up. But they're not worried about raptors in general, which are the ones that are up. They specifically mention eagles and condos. Eagles benefited from captive breeding programs and condos aren't up.

I've never seen real data on how many birds windmills kill, but the point they'll counter with is that because they're helping climate change they are a net positive for the planet and species.

And I'm not agreeing with either of the above.

I'm saying if we're going to hold their feet to the fire demanding good science and accurate statements, we need to do the same.

 

[displacedtexan]

Fairly sure it's policy, but the range is right on a wetlands with lots of birds that is protected, so it's possible there's a regulation requiring that policy. I'm not sure. And it is government owned and operated. I've never seen anyone there on the shotgun range.
The next closest range has shotguns going all the time. Lead shells are fine there.

Yeah, that sucks.

Wetlands seem like an odd place to put a shotgun range!

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Yeah, that sucks.

Wetlands seem like an odd place to put a shotgun range!

Ranges are often on or near otherwise marginal real estate. My public range in Delaware was surrounded by wetlands. Because that made sense from a land use perspective a hundred years ago.


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