Cold Bore Challenge

[sndmn11]

Remember that the point of the cold bow or cold bore challenge is not to compare yourself to anyone else which is why the prizes have nothing to do with the actual range someone shoots. The point is to make it fun to challenge ourselves in an honest way and to give each of us a better understanding of OUR limitations.

This is real close to my perspective. My goal with a rifle is to be deadly in any position within 100 yards, nearly all at 200, and to be really frank, it would take perfect conditions for me to take a shot at 400 yards on a big game animal, 300-350 would be much more likely as a max in the real world FOR ME. I do practice farther, but wouldn't consider anything beyond 400 to be in my MER now or anytime in the near future. You guys are talking about distances close to double. Just like I might practice very effectively with my bow out to 100 yards, that doesn't mean it is anywhere close to my MER. For me, shooting at an animal and a target are very different and our household has walked away from more on game shots with 100% confidence and zero regret than we have taken because of the idea of needing to "know" the whole scenario is good.

I would be game for a one day 10-20 shot standard process from varying positions and % of MER as position changed. Very similar to what @Phil Mendoza did with his challenge in 2020, but all in one day to clear the hurdle of getting to a safe rifle range. https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/effective-range-challenge-info.168610/

 

[TK-421]

Without giving it a ton of thought (so maybe I'm running off the rails), we have four things going on:

1.A. – Rifle System (rifle, ammo, mounts, optic, etc.)
1.B. – Shooter’s fundamentals
2. Cartridge Efficiency
3. Shooter’s Wind Reading Abilities

#1 - I think we can simply combine 1.A. and 1.B for this discussion. This can also really easily be quantified in a short amount of time. Although the Kraft drill is not the end all be all, it is pretty well established, and there’s no real reason to reinvent the wheel in my opinion. Not to mention, there’s no arbitrary target sizes, no arbitrary gear requirements/restrictions, no arbitrary time requirement (although the stress drill is somewhat arbitrary). Use the gear you've got that you'll use in the field. Pretty simple.

Round count is another thing the Kraft has going for it. Although not really statistically significant, 12 independent build & breaks starts showing how consistent/inconsistent you are as a shooter, which will likely overshadow 1.A anyways. Even if shooting standing is not something you normally would do, overall the drill exposes your inconsistencies. Again, this can be done in a couple minutes in a single range trip.

#2 – Generally, there is an inversely proportionate relationship between shootability and the cartridge’s efficiency. For example, a large 30 cal magnum shooting 215 Berger at 3,050 fps is about a 10MPH gun where I live, and a 223 shooting 77TMKs at 2600 fps is going to be about a 4MPH gun. At 600 yards (for example) someone that could only read the wind to within 4 MPH (a novice) using the 30 cal magnum example would have the same probability of hitting a target as someone that could read wind to about 1.5 MPH (elite wind caller) with a 223 (assuming Item #1 was equal). This is why cartridge selection should be considered IMO.

#3 – Shooter’s wind reading abilities is very important, but this will be very hard to quantifiably measure the shooter's accuracy & consistency. Especially if you do not have a baseline established for #1.A & #1.B. Not to mention, people aren't "learning the wind" by practicing shooting at distance. After the first 1, 2, or 3 rounds, you should have the wind pretty well figured out. You'd then have to sit around and wait for a significant change in the wind to learn anything more. I think most people exaggerate how "switchy" the wind is where they shoot (or flat out blame the wind for their own shortcomings). And, as already mentioned, people are generally pretty familiar with the wind in their normal shooting spots. So, shooting in the wind at distance at your normal spot is not a good indicator of your MER anyways.




I tend to like the short range (100 yards) paper idea for an internet challenge. Short ranges are going to be more accessible to more shooters, which has a bigger potential to get more involvement, and ultimately help develop/encourage more shooters.

Although we will not be able to easily quantify the shooters ability to call wind (speed & direction), in order to normalize, we could assume +/- 4MPH, which should be doable for most to establish Max(ish) Effective Range. Direction is another matter. If we can assume that shooters can call wind within 30 degrees, we would need to conservatively double the wind calling budget to 8 MPH. Of course, some will be better and some will be worse.





Assuming a 12” vital zone, and using the quick wind method for mils,



If we are to simply use a 4 MPH & 30 degree wind calling ability to normalize & hopefully be conservative, then we get



If you have a 4 (inch) Kraft Number (meaning accuracy, not precision), and you’re shooting the above 30 cal mag example (10 MPH gun), then:

MER = 251 yards

If you have a 4 (inch) Kraft number (meaning accuracy, not precision) and you're using the 223 example (a 4 MPH gun), then:

MER = 213 yards

If someone wants to say that they only ever shoot prone, then maybe just use the 12-shot build & break “standard” for all prone shots. Just to run out the example, let’s say the accuracy level (not precision) is 1-MOA for all 12 shots, at close range, with the 30 cal magnum example, then

MER = 739 yards

For the 223 example shooting from the prone and having a 1-MOA, 12-shot accuracy, then

MER = 482 yards



For the internet challenge, and I'm just spitballing, it could be a two-step submittal:

1) shoot the close range 12-shot group and calculate your MER
2) confirm hits at your calculated MER distance (or as close as possible, preferably closer if you can't get to the exact MER)

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I don't know maybe I dislike overthinking things, but this is a long range hunting subsection.
We can calculate all kinds of 100 yard simulations, but in the end shooting at distance is the only way to really test our long range cold bore abilities.

The wind thing is certainly tough to assign evenly given that we would all be shooting in different situations.
Some at a flat consistent developed range, and some across multiple ridges with fishtailing winds.
Whatever though I'm totally game, maybe we could include documentation with a pic or two of our given shooting scenarios to show the environmental factors that we battled.

I really don't think the familiarity of our shooting spot is a big concern, I can tell you it's humbling every time I shoot at my 1000 yard plates thinking I have the right wind call.
Conditions in the mountains literally change by the minute, it's a part of the game I really enjoy.

Also the caliber etc is of no concern, I'd assume all of us who shoot long range seriously have some combination that will launch bullets with bcs in the .6s or .7s at decent velocities.
If someone chooses to use a .223 that's their own chosen handicap.

 

[willfrye027]

You guys are making this way too complicated.

Choose your MER for whatever rifle and system you have. Eastern guys maybe it’s 300 yards out of a box blind cause that’s the farthest you shoot. Some guys will want to shoot 800 yards with a bipod and rear bag.

Shoot one shot on 5 different days from your selected range and shooting position. Can be as creative or as boring as you want, but there should be an explanation of why you have settled on the range/position/target. It should be the farthest you think you would take a shot at an animal in the field, under MOST conditions. If it’s gusting 30mph and you wouldn’t take the shot, then don’t, and come back another day to shoot.

Record the progress and post it up.

I’d love to participate, I’ve got steel set up out to 700 yards nearby which would be my MER for shooting off a bipod and rear bag. Got a little dirt mound I shoot off to keep it more realistic. I will probably miss once or twice depending on what the wind is doing..that part of the challenge is what is valuable about the CBC. What do you think you can shoot, versus the reality.

My two cents

 

[Travis Bertrand]

Like previously stated, we would love to do this and trying to figure out the best way to do it. Like @willfrye027 mentioned, I like this simplicity but with the caveat that MER changes with each daily shot as conditions change daily.

Or 5 day challenge with 5 different positions and MER.

SO MANY OPTIONS!

 

[TK-421]

Funny how facts and data are seen as too complicated and overthinking it. I guess it boils down to intent and what is trying to be promoted/encouraged by this.

If the goal is to know your abilities backed up by data, you gotta be a little bit more organized and disciplined in how you approach this IMO. I mean look at how many “what just happened to me” or “why is my ballistic solver wrong” threads that get posted. (And how many of those situations don’t get posted). People don’t have a systematic approach, they don’t have an understanding of their own abilities/limitations or the why behind it, and they typically do not have log books or keep records of anything other than those couple of cherry picked internet groups. There are paths that have already been paved by accomplished shooters that can be taken.

If the goal is solely to be simple and have fun, that’s cool too.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Funny how facts and data are seen as too complicated and overthinking it. I guess it boils down to intent and what is trying to be promoted/encouraged by this.

If the goal is to know your abilities backed up by data, you gotta be a little bit more organized and disciplined in how you approach this IMO. I mean look at how many “what just happened to me” or “why is my ballistic solver wrong” threads that get posted. (And how many of those situations don’t get posted). People don’t have a systematic approach, they don’t have an understanding of their own abilities/limitations or the why behind it, and they typically do not have log books or keep records of anything other than those couple of cherry picked internet groups. There are paths that have already been paved by accomplished shooters that can be taken.

If the goal is solely to be simple and have fun, that’s cool too.

read your last sentence 5 times and you’ll be good.

 

[Justin Crossley]

You guys are making this way too complicated.

Choose your MER for whatever rifle and system you have. Eastern guys maybe it’s 300 yards out of a box blind cause that’s the farthest you shoot. Some guys will want to shoot 800 yards with a bipod and rear bag.

Shoot one shot on 5 different days from your selected range and shooting position. Can be as creative or as boring as you want, but there should be an explanation of why you have settled on the range/position/target. It should be the farthest you think you would take a shot at an animal in the field, under MOST conditions. If it’s gusting 30mph and you wouldn’t take the shot, then don’t, and come back another day to shoot.

Record the progress and post it up.

I’d love to participate, I’ve got steel set up out to 700 yards nearby which would be my MER for shooting off a bipod and rear bag. Got a little dirt mound I shoot off to keep it more realistic. I will probably miss once or twice depending on what the wind is doing..that part of the challenge is what is valuable about the CBC. What do you think you can shoot, versus the reality.

My two cents

This pretty much nails it.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Funny how facts and data are seen as too complicated and overthinking it. I guess it boils down to intent and what is trying to be promoted/encouraged by this.

If the goal is to know your abilities backed up by data, you gotta be a little bit more organized and disciplined in how you approach this IMO. I mean look at how many “what just happened to me” or “why is my ballistic solver wrong” threads that get posted. (And how many of those situations don’t get posted). People don’t have a systematic approach, they don’t have an understanding of their own abilities/limitations or the why behind it, and they typically do not have log books or keep records of anything other than those couple of cherry picked internet groups. There are paths that have already been paved by accomplished shooters that can be taken.

If the goal is solely to be simple and have fun, that’s cool too.

The basic goal of the cold bore challenge is for each shooter to understand their own personal limits. In a hunting situation, the most important shot is the first, "cold bore" shot.

Doing different types of drills or Kraft challenges is a great way to improve your skills.

Going out and applying what you learned in said drills at long range and testing your limits is what I would want to get out of this.

And the goal is definitely to have fun!

 

[TK-421]

read your last sentence 5 times and you’ll be good.

If that’s the intent, then I say run a random number generator from 0-1500 yards weekly and spin a position wheel. Simple & fun.

 

[mtnrunner260]

This could go anywhere between 100 yards off a bench to in the field and out of breath after doing 60 vertical miles.
Even without RS doing a challenge I know I can do a better job of learning and hopefully increasing my MER.
Lots of good ideas in the thread.

 

[mfllood3800]

Everytime I train seriously for my MER for elk or deer LE draws, I end up shooting under 10 yards with a bow, and under 100 with a rifle. lol

 

[HaydenLane]

The basic goal of the cold bore challenge is for each shooter to understand their own personal limits. In a hunting situation, the most important shot is the first, "cold bore" shot.

Doing different types of drills or Kraft challenges is a great way to improve your skills.

Going out and applying what you learned in said drills at long range and testing your limits is what I would want to get out of this.

And the goal is definitely to have fun!

Making this anything other than 100 yards on paper eliminates ~50% of the pool that would participate, maybe more. I’d bet my favorite rifle we won’t see a bunch of tiny holes touching on the bullseye for anyone shooting the Kraft drill, or Form’s 4 position drill.

This doesn’t have to be a MER challenge like the cold bow challenge. The logistics are much more complicated.

 

[realunlucky]

Making this anything other than 100 yards on paper eliminates ~50% of the pool that would participate, maybe more. I’d bet my favorite rifle we won’t see a bunch of tiny holes touching on the bullseye for anyone shooting the Kraft drill, or Form’s 4 position drill.

This doesn’t have to be a MER challenge like the cold bow challenge. The logistics are much more complicated.

I'm going to say that participation numbers are not being considered as numbers are not the purpose of the challenge. As with anything in life -- if it's important enough you'll find a way to make it happen.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[HaydenLane]

I'm going to say that participation numbers are not being considered as numbers are not the purpose of the challenge. As with anything in life -- if it's important enough you'll find a way to make it happen.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Maybe you’re right, but I definitely think participation is a factor when you’re asking sponsors to chip in and mods to do a bunch of work.

 

[sndmn11]

Maybe you’re right, but I definitely think participation is a factor when you’re asking sponsors to chip in and mods to do a bunch of work.

If I were considering being a sponsor, I would care most about visibility, not participation. I'd choose 100 participants and 10k views over 500 participants and 5k views.

 

[Lawnboi]

Funny how facts and data are seen as too complicated and overthinking it. I guess it boils down to intent and what is trying to be promoted/encouraged by this.

If the goal is to know your abilities backed up by data, you gotta be a little bit more organized and disciplined in how you approach this IMO. I mean look at how many “what just happened to me” or “why is my ballistic solver wrong” threads that get posted. (And how many of those situations don’t get posted). People don’t have a systematic approach, they don’t have an understanding of their own abilities/limitations or the why behind it, and they typically do not have log books or keep records of anything other than those couple of cherry picked internet groups. There are paths that have already been paved by accomplished shooters that can be taken.

If the goal is solely to be simple and have fun, that’s cool too.

I think we are drinking the same koolaid. I learn alot more about my MER from shooting a few Kraft drills, than I do shooting a few rounds at 600 yards, especially if it’s an established range. I think if guys tried it and were honest they would get more from it as well.

A novice shooter gets almost nothing from sending an occasional round at distance. That’s my opinion as a novice shooter who started this year focusing on fundamentals over making plates at distance go ding a few times and going home.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I think we are drinking the same koolaid. I learn alot more about my MER from shooting a few Kraft drills, than I do shooting a few rounds at 600 yards, especially if it’s an established range. I think if guys tried it and were honest they would get more from it as well.

A novice shooter gets almost nothing from sending an occasional round at distance. That’s my opinion as a novice shooter who started this year focusing on fundamentals over making plates at distance go ding a few times and going home.

We get it. Some guys love the Kraft drill. And MOST of the guys on here pushing this 100 yard paper stuff are doing it because they dont want to make the effort to find a place to shoot farther. There are 50,000 members, I think out of all those we can find enough to make the challenge work. Look at the archery version, it fills up in hours, and there are plenty of guys wanting to join that don’t make it before it fills up. If the number is 50, I bet this fills up in a day. The archery challenge is the same, they’re not requiring guys to shoot at 10 yards in different position, most guys are shooting 60-80, very similar to 600-800 with a rifle. No complaints from anybody there…

I agree, it’s not about the number of participants, it’s about the visibility. I have a feeling this is going to get a ton of hits! I bet a bipod company for example, would love to see guys shooting long distance, that’s most likely their potential client.

I’m hoping we hear soon that this is going forward!!!!

 

[Lawnboi]

We get it. Some guys love the Kraft drill. And MOST of the guys on here pushing this 100 yard paper stuff are doing it because they dont want to make the effort to find a place to shoot farther. There are 50,000 members, I think out of all those we can find enough to make the challenge work. Look at the archery version, it fills up in hours, and there are plenty of guys wanting to join that don’t make it before it fills up. If the number is 50, I bet this fills up in a day. The archery challenge is the same, they’re not requiring guys to shoot at 10 yards in different position, most guys are shooting 60-80, very similar to 600-800 with a rifle. No complaints from anybody there…

I agree, it’s not about the number of participants, it’s about the visibility. I have a feeling this is going to get a ton of hits! I bet a bipod company for example, would love to see guys shooting long distance, that’s most likely their potential client.

I’m hoping we hear soon that this is going forward!!!!

I’d be fine with it being that way too. I’d participate still.
I shoot a lot at distance too. I’m simply reiterating what has worked and caused me to get more hits at distance. Many of the top distance shooters might be doing just that too, maybe you can tell them their wrong and it dosnt tell you anything. I’m not arguing that shooting at distance dosnt matter. I see the merit in both and also understand that wind is the equalizer at distance.

Everyone’s MER starts at 100 yards. I bet everyone has a zero wind MER too.

There’s only a few ways to make this a true MER test on a cold bore shot. It’s just not doable, and near impossible. Better seal up at target so you can’t feel the wind down there too.

This week I’ll shoot a couple hundred shots at prairie dogs and coyotes and find my real MER.

I also want to see more people become proficient shooters at all ranges, I know what’s worked for me and what hasn’t.

 

[TK-421]

I’m not pushing the Kraft as the only way. I also have easy/quick access to 1,000 yards and shoot that regularly. I just think it would be cool if there was a component of this that helped people get better regardless of if they participate in the actual thread or not. And if you’re not heavily invested in shooting paper at 100 - 300 yards, you’re doing an enormous disservice to yourself.

Having fun isn’t going to be an obstacle here. Pretty much anything shooting related is fun - bolt guns, carbines, pistols, shotguns, squirt guns, lawn darts……Bragging threads are cool too, but they aren’t helping anyone - so again, what’s the intent?

As for sponsors and free stuff - who cares. Anyone that’s even a little into this sport is going to have spare rings, bipods, triggers, stocks, scopes, blah blah blah. Honestly, and I’m probably in the minority, but I’d rather there not be any free stuff at all. Promote a process to make people successful in the field - and that process does not involve guess-and-check, arbitrary sized targets at arbitrary distances in random conditions with arbitrary gear restrictions/requirements.