Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

[Jake Larsen]

Which they may get from other things they specialize in life.

And hunting they pay for could just be a wonderful and challenging 'vacation with goals' for them?

Who are any of us to not only assume, but worse demand, that they go for the exact same satisfaction levels another may get who is 100% diy everything from shooting to hunting?

See? It's a 'you do you, I'll do me' sort of thing. How do you know they aren't more satisfied than you or I???? They might be 100x more satisfied after a hunt than you or me hahaha.

WHO CARES, it only matters to me how I feel about things I do lol. AND, I hope that any other guy no matter his level of shooting/hunting experience has the absolute best time afield and wish them nothing but success. But that's me doing me...

Quite literally why I said “to each their own”.

On a side note, I spend a lot of time around some extremely wealthy people for my job. Have gotten to know some of them really well on a personal level. Let’s just say, from where I’m sitting, most of them could really use something that provides deep satisfaction in their lives. That “just buy it” mentality doesn’t typically stop with hunting, it tends to permeate their whole life. Unlimited access isn’t always a good thing…

But again, to each their own. I don’t care what those guys choose to do. It was just an observation, and something that stood out to me in the conversation. Most are probably going to think this is a lie, but I’m writing this while on lunch break in a building that has about 15 gunwerks rifles displayed in a case over in the corner haha.


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[Sundodger]

What is really impressive about this thread is the number of guys that are explaining the difference between component testing and system testing, and the number of guys that just can't grasp it.

To the fellas struggling with it, just want to go over and ask chat GPT to explain component and system level testing of mechanical systems including all the various parts and overlap, I think that would help you and this thread.

Test engineering is a pretty well established field, none of this is new or rocket surgery.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What is really impressive about this thread is the number of guys that are explaining the difference between component testing and system testing, and the number of guys that just can't grasp it.

To the fellas struggling with it, just want to go over and ask chat GPT to explain component and system level testing of mechanical systems including all the various parts and overlap, I think that would help you and this thread.

Test engineering is a pretty well established field, none of this is new or rocket surgery.

This is nearly exactly what my focus at work was for around 8 years. A system made up of multiple components all with their own potential failure points that can stuff up the performance of the overall system.

System level and component level testing are both highly important for the success or failure of an overarching solution.

Luckily guns are pretty easy. Once you bring firmware and software into the mix with hardware systems, that’s when the “fun” stuff starts haha.

 

[woods89]

Quite literally why I said “to each their own”.

On a side note, I spend a lot of time around some extremely wealthy people for my job. Have gotten to know some of them really well on a personal level. Let’s just say, from where I’m sitting, most of them could really use something that provides deep satisfaction in their lives. That “just buy it” mentality doesn’t typically stop with hunting, it tends to permeate their whole life. Unlimited access isn’t always a good thing…

But again, to each their own. I don’t care what those guys choose to do. It was just an observation, and something that stood out to me in the conversation. Most are probably going to think this is a lie, but I’m writing this while on lunch break in a building that has about 15 gunwerks rifles displayed in a case over in the corner haha.


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Completely agree.

A ribeye is really good, but if you have one every day for lunch and dinner, the magic is going to leave at some point. It takes a wise man to know how much (or how easy) is too much ( or too easy).

 

[JGRaider]

Very entertaining podcast, Aaron definitely is a wealth of knowledge, but he seems extremely arrogant. I understand gunwerks has paved the way in the long range shooting world, but the dude seems extremely douchey.

That's because he is a sawed off, arrogant runt. He and his half pint brother made asses of themselves at DSC a few years ago with their arrogance and condescending attitudes. I'd never spend a penny with this clown or his company. BTW, "1000 yds out of the box" is a freaking joke.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Wow, no projection sensed there. Not sure which of you would be more fun around a fire but both at the same time would definitely be fire.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Completely agree.

A ribeye is really good, but if you have one every day for lunch and dinner, the magic is going to leave at some point. It takes a wise man to know how much (or how easy) is too much ( or too easy).

I’ve had a lot of opportunity in the last few years to see this up close and personal. There’s no end to chasing that dragon. It has to be self imposed. It’s really changed the way I have formulated in my own mind when “enough is enough”, and what really matters in life.


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[deerhunter628]

I listened to the drop test part of the podcast again. Seems as if Aaron is hinting at the liability there is in the drop tests. Take a company like Leupold, they can claim that the drop tests were not done scientifically by professionals. Then they claim that the non scientific tests have negatively impacted their sales, which Rokslide proves the drop test results have influenced people from buying Leupolds. Just something to think about.

 

[JDMBEND]

Tangential complaint: Spotify kinda jaded me on this podcast if I'm being honest and I'm leery about listening to this episode even though this one sounds like it could be interesting. This podcast is not in my regular rotation but I listened to one of cliff's podcasts on a specific topic some time ago and now spotify CONSTANTLY tries to autoplay this podcast all the time on me which completely turned me off to it. I'll be in the middle of a string of "X" podcast with more episodes to go and suddenly its cliff's podcast. Spotify has done this with a couple others in the past and it just pisses me off and I end up actively avoiding listening to those specific podcasts due to it. I'm probably the anomaly but this is an instance of the "algorithm" shooting an artist/content in the foot by making their content annoying due to unprompted plays.

Use a different podcast provider

 

[TheCougar]

Someone mentioned on here the “why”. If someone really wants to take the next step, it would be to crack open the failures and identify what part or design is failing.

As far as the testing protocols, I think both sides have valid points. For me, the proof is in the pudding. I treat my rifles pretty cavalierly and don’t baby them. I only have scopes that have passed the drop test, and I have never lost zero or failed to track properly. Small sample size, but when thrown in with all the other anecdotes, I think there is definitely something to the drop tests.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Use a different podcast provider

Got a recommendation you like? Spotify was an easy button so I use it but I am open to others if they are better.

 

[JDMBEND]

I use Apple and Spotify

 

[Nevwild]

Got a recommendation you like? Spotify was an easy button so I use it but I am open to others if they are better.

I like Castro for the queue system. It’s really nice to stack podcasts I want to listen to before a long drive.

 

[nm.otter]

Apple Podcasts is fine if you're in the ecosystem -- I left a few years ago.

Google Podcsts merged into YouTube Music, and I really don't enjoy the clutter. I'm liking PocketCasts on Android. No extra ads, minimal clutter in the UI.

 

[Frozenlead]

Definitely think it was a good podcast. I’ve been following more of Cliffs content lately, I’ll be watching for his follow up with the scope testing. The rokslide drop tests have me trapped in the wormhole. I’m always watching and hoping there’s more scopes that pass and are actually available to us in Canada as our options on most of the mid tier scopes seem to be limited.
On the .223/6.5cm as a trainer, recoil aside. A box of 6.5cm 147eldms is $65 cad these days. Be an expensive 200round day for sure.

Now I’m off to go down the biltong rabbit hole.

 

[wind gypsy]

Definitely think it was a good podcast. I’ve been following more of Cliffs content lately, I’ll be watching for his follow up with the scope testing. The rokslide drop tests have me trapped in the wormhole. I’m always watching and hoping there’s more scopes that pass and are actually available to us in Canada as our options on most of the mid tier scopes seem to be limited.
On the .223/6.5cm as a trainer, recoil aside. A box of 6.5cm 147eldms is $65 cad these days. Be an expensive 200round day for sure.

Now I’m off to go down the biltong rabbit hole.

yeah, no way would $3+/round ammo be on the radar for trainer. I see 147 ELD online for around $1.50 here but even then it would be a tough sell if norma is @ $1.20/ea.

 

[nagibson1]

Davidson isn't wrong; if you're going to test a scope, you don't mount it in rings, mounted to an action, mounted in a rifle stock, then drop the whole assembly. While not repeatable in any way, NF seems to be able to test a one off without much trouble. Maybe smack on the turrets a little bit next time.

If someone did this for all the scopes and simulated all the things Form does I would think it IS superior to Form's tests. It would be great to have that Night force guy in a booth at a shot show testing 35 different scopes with those tests and more. I admit that eliminating system variables is better scientifically.

In following Form's stuff, I have learned as much about bases, rings, torque, and rails as scopes. Also, seeing him "get to the bottom" of the Montana Rifle was also good medicine- there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

But when Form has a few systems that he has worked all of those things out of, his tests become more and more helpful. I think he has done a great job of doubting his findings if something else could be an issue. And his transparency seems pretty generous.

The benefit of true innovation or prophetic action (calling bull crap on something no one wants to talk about) is that people rush into the market. Form will not be the only game in town for long, but that will mean that he won. And we might get better scopes- which was the point all along. As someone that lives 40 minutes from Vortex central, and seen the generosity of the owners, I'd love to see it effect the whole industry. When iit hits the whole industry, there will not just be higher standards, but downward price pressures. And more options: like bomb proof with just ok glass and only 10moa of adjustment.

 

[Sundodger]

This is nearly exactly what my focus at work was for around 8 years. A system made up of multiple components all with their own potential failure points that can stuff up the performance of the overall system.

System level and component level testing are both highly important for the success or failure of an overarching solution.

Luckily guns are pretty easy. Once you bring firmware and software into the mix with hardware systems, that’s when the “fun” stuff starts haha.

Agreed, and not that it can't be interesting work, it's just so odd to me that people make it out to be this mythical thing, especially in the context of guns, given how simple they are. Your Toyota corolla doesn't go 250K miles on accident.

ASPICE can suck my balls.

 

[SDHNTR]

I have not seen anybody else repeat that smack test. The Leupold test I have seen repeatedly, is an impact test, in the longitudinal axis, simulating recoil.
The unique aspect of the RS drop test is the turrets are impacted with each drop. I’d guess mfg’s purposely avoid showing what happens when their turrets get hit.

March does a whack job similar to NF. At least they do in some videos.

 

[Moose83]

Definitely think it was a good podcast. I’ve been following more of Cliffs content lately, I’ll be watching for his follow up with the scope testing. The rokslide drop tests have me trapped in the wormhole. I’m always watching and hoping there’s more scopes that pass and are actually available to us in Canada as our options on most of the mid tier scopes seem to be limited.
On the .223/6.5cm as a trainer, recoil aside. A box of 6.5cm 147eldms is $65 cad these days. Be an expensive 200round day for sure.

Now I’m off to go down the biltong rabbit hole.

You can import SWFA scopes into Canada through Prophet River firearms... my 6x just showed up this week from the second to last drop. Count on it costing double in CAD as it shows in USD. I've done a 3-15x and a 6x in the last 2 years.