Cecil

[topher89]

I'm particularly curious why a guy (any of us) would go and hunt in a venue where laws are perhaps vague, fluid or unevenly enforced. I absolutely understand wanting to hunt a certain animal and knowing there might be risks involved. When the risk is that you could easily be victimized by a landowner, guide, outfitter, official or law enforcement...is it worth that risk? If you answer 'yes' and accept the risk, does that make you a bold adventurer or a careless hunter? If you end up on the wrong side of the law (assuming) does that make you simply unlucky...or are you willingly taking risks which are ill-advised and prone to make you look like you didn't have enough self-governance to stay out of potential trouble?

If our dentist had shot a nice cat somewhere far from Hwange this scene doesn't happen. If you spend $50k+, go into a country with known problems, put yourself in questionable hands, generally ignore everything else in your quest for a species considered by over 90% of Americans to be threatened, and then kill a celebrity animal....while having a proven record of killing another animal illegally (we tend to call that a form of poaching and NOT an accident)....doesn't this reasonably paint a picture of very bad judgment at least? When do we stop defending hunters who take known risks, push legal limits, possibly break laws, and then blame the people around them for what happened?

Maybe this guy is 100% legally innocent. I happen to think he's at least 80% deserving of a kick in the ass for the choices he's made and the firestorm ignited by that. It WILL affect us as hunters. When my child used to blame everyone around (them) for what happened, it never held water with me. You go through life that way and you'll never learn to stay out of trouble. You make your choices and you live with the consequences. If those consequences bleed over to hurt other people, you shouldn't be surprised if they come down on you hard and make you hurt in return.

I haven't pre-judged this dentist/shooter as guilty of an illegal lion kill. A judge and/or jury will determine that. For my part, he's proven beyond all doubt that he's a poor decision-maker and unable to keep himself out of very questionable situations while hunting. I won't shun him, but I won't defend him either at this point. All eyes are watching.

Great post man. He is either very ignorant or willfully unethical. As hunters we have a responsibility to know ALL the rules and regs. If its vague or you are unsure, its best to just walk away. Never trust someone else's judgement, especially if you don't know them well. Not being aware of the laws is not a way to avoid punishment. He isn't a kid, he is an adult man who claims hunting is his passion... if he really cares about hunting that much, he should do all he can to know the rules and area.

As a trophy hunter, he was probably playing faster and looser with the rules because he was always trying to get something bigger and better.

 

[Shrek]

Like I posted earlier , you take big risks going to a third world chithole to hunt but when you do you're at the mercy of the PH to keep you legal. There is no way you can even know the laws of many countries because the law is what the local wardens , police , militia , ect say it is that day. We really have no idea if this was a legal hunt or not. I believe there's a good chance that this was in fact a legal hunt but a "celebrity " lion was killed and someone who writes big checks pitched a fit or someone wants the PH's concession...or the PH and famer really didn't have the right permit. Whatever happened the Doctor wasn't arrested or even detained and there is a report that the Zimbabwe government wants to talk to him but there was no extradition request. This is anti agenda in the first world driven and the Doctor just got trapped in it is my opinion with what I know at this time. The PH is out on bail and says he had the right permits and expects to be exonerated of the charges.
Those who say you should know all the laws of some foreign country where you hunt are not being realistic. You hire an outfitter and are accompanied by a PH for lots of reasons and this being a big one of those reasons.

 

[mfolch]

I'm just saying, I think luring your neighborhood kitten with cat food, taming him to hand, until he responds by name, and then shooting him point blank range with a high power bow, but not killing him, and then getting some guy you've paid more than the average American family earns to finish him off with a rifle, and then skinning him...that's the apex of masculinity. As the members of this forum will attest, there's no better hunter and no better hunting experience than that. After all, this forum was created for and by a group of select, hardcore hunters who long ago abandoned all hunting technique and endurance to set up bait traps and plant deer browse in their back yards so they can shoot Bambi from the living room window all from the comfort of their recliners... Just like the Masai.

 

[rodney482]

Well there you have it folks

I'm just saying, I think luring your neighborhood kitten with cat food, taming him to hand, until he responds by name, and then shooting him point blank range with a high power bow, but not killing him, and then getting some guy you've paid more than the average American family earns to finish him off with a rifle, and then skinning him...that's the apex of masculinity. As the members of this forum will attest, there's no better hunter and no better hunting experience than that. After all, this forum was created for and by a group of select, hardcore hunters who long ago abandoned all hunting technique and endurance to set up bait traps and plant deer browse in their back yards so they can shoot Bambi from the living room window all from the comfort of their recliners... Just like the Masai.

 

[rodney482]

This reminds me of Shockey and his adventures.

Losts of Risks for sure

Like I posted earlier , you take big risks going to a world chithole to hunt but when you do you're at the mercy of the PH to keep you legal. There is no way you can even know the laws of many countries because the law is what the local wardens , police , militia , ect say it is that day. We really have no idea if this was a legal hunt or not. I believe there's a good chance that this was in fact a legal hunt but a "celebrity " lion was killed and someone who writes big checks pitched a fit or someone wants the PH's concession...or the PH and famer really didn't have the right permit. Whatever happened the Doctor wasn't arrested or even detained and there is a report that the Zimbabwe government wants to talk to him but there was no extradition request. This is anti agenda in the first world driven and the Doctor just got trapped in it is my opinion with what I know at this time. The PH is out on bail and says he had the right permits and expects to be exonerated of the charges.
Those who say you should know all the laws of some foreign country where you hunt are not being realistic. You hire an outfitter and are accompanied by a PH for lots of reasons and this being a big one of those reasons.

 

[Shrek]

One thing for sure is that the big looser in all of this will be the wildlife in Africa. How many safaris wi be canceled and the value of the animals diminished ? How many land owners will decide that they can make more money from cattle and exterminate every lion and other possible predator and clear the brush that wildlife needs in favor of a little poor grass ? The anti's kill far more than I would ever dream of.

 

[Outhunting]

I have hunted Zimbabwe twice, 2006 and 2009. I booked my hunts at SCI both times and word of mouth helped me decide which outfitters I chose. I consider myself to be reasonably smart and self sufficient but I relied on my PH's 100 percent of the time. 100 percent of the time for my safety as well as the laws. If someone thinks they are going to research the hunting laws, concession boundaries, game scouts, PH's, landowners and every other variable that adds up to a Africa adventure please tell me where to go to get what you are smoking. As others have mentioned it is the wild, wild west in Zimbabwe. We were stopped in roadblocks by people that did not even look like they were with the Government or police that were obviously trying to solicit bribes. When you are stopped by men with guns and yours is safely nestled in the pelican case in the back of the cruiser it can be quite intimidating. I am sure some of the sarcastic, opionated brainiacs that are posting about this could easily Rambo themselves out of any trouble as well armchair quarterback the whole hunt better when that lion was killed. People disappear in Zimbabwe and the mere mention of Mugabe around the campfire by the client, not knowing the locals are not even to speak about him, makes for uncomfortable looks. I did what my PH told me to do to remain safe and to have a successful hunt. When I killed my Cape Buffalo he was a couple of hundred yards away from the park that he came out of. The river was the boundary, him and another swam across making him fair game. When I say "park" there were no swing sets and the other side looked just like the side we were on but we had the luxury of having the river as the border instead of an invisible line. I know a gentlemen that killed a huge Ram in Wyoming that spent most of his time inside a invisible line and when he spotted by friend and the guide they were able to whack him. Baiting in Africa is the norm for leopards and lions. Unless you are somewhere like the Kalahari where tracking the lion is a good way hunt them, baiting is what they do. I dont know if the Dentist's hunt was totally legit or not so I cant say good or bad about it but one thing is for certain... what Shrek just mentioned Wildlife will be the loser on this now that the Antis know how much fire they can stir up. Hide your Taxidermy folks!

 

[Outhunting]

I forgot to mention...The park I was hunting next to was the Kruger National park and it is 2 million hectares!

 

[tipsntails7]

I'm particularly curious why a guy (any of us) would go and hunt in a venue where laws are perhaps vague, fluid or unevenly enforced. I absolutely understand wanting to hunt a certain animal and knowing there might be risks involved. When the risk is that you could easily be victimized by a landowner, guide, outfitter, official or law enforcement...is it worth that risk? If you answer 'yes' and accept the risk, does that make you a bold adventurer or a careless hunter? If you end up on the wrong side of the law (assuming) does that make you simply unlucky...or are you willingly taking risks which are ill-advised and prone to make you look like you didn't have enough self-governance to stay out of potential trouble?

If our dentist had shot a nice cat somewhere far from Hwange this scene doesn't happen. If you spend $50k+, go into a country with known problems, put yourself in questionable hands, generally ignore everything else in your quest for a species considered by over 90% of Americans to be threatened, and then kill a celebrity animal....while having a proven record of killing another animal illegally (we tend to call that a form of poaching and NOT an accident)....doesn't this reasonably paint a picture of very bad judgment at least? When do we stop defending hunters who take known risks, push legal limits, possibly break laws, and then blame the people around them for what happened?

Maybe this guy is 100% legally innocent. I happen to think he's at least 80% deserving of a kick in the ass for the choices he's made and the firestorm ignited by that. It WILL affect us as hunters. When my child used to blame everyone around (them) for what happened, it never held water with me. You go through life that way and you'll never learn to stay out of trouble. You make your choices and you live with the consequences. If those consequences bleed over to hurt other people, you shouldn't be surprised if they come down on you hard and make you hurt in return.

I haven't pre-judged this dentist/shooter as guilty of an illegal lion kill. A judge and/or jury will determine that. For my part, he's proven beyond all doubt that he's a poor decision-maker and unable to keep himself out of very questionable situations while hunting. I won't shun him, but I won't defend him either at this point. All eyes are watching.

Kevin, I was not the one paying to hunt, but I got to go and tote a camera, it's an experience I will never forget, setting aside the amount of bullshit that is constantly going on in those countries it's an amazing place to be. The animals are amazing, the actual people are amazing and the landscape is quite impressive. The man that I went with had been 3 times prior, he constantly asked his PH info all the time, when we arrived he asked to see all the paper work that pertained to his hunt, and went over it with the PH. It's not an easy country to be in but you can choose to go over oblivious and put all your faith in your PH, or go over and do your best to make sure you at least have a slight clue as to what is going on.

In this case the problem is that the PH nor the landowner had the proper paperwork to take a lion on that sector of land, Allegedly. That's a problem that could have been solved by simply glancing at the paperwork.

 

[realunlucky]

I don't know how you would check the paper work he wasn't there to shoot a lion it was a target of opportunity. Ph said you want to harvest him it wasn't preplanned.

 

[tipsntails7]

I don't know how you would check the paper work he wasn't there to shoot a lion it was a target of opportunity. Ph said you want to harvest him it wasn't preplanned.

I had not read that, if that's the case he's getting a shitty deal. What was he hunting? Lions are not normally an opportunity but more the big ticket on the list.

 

[Shrek]

Leopard is what I read somewhere. There's not much incentive to trophy hunt lions if you don't have a license for one as I don't think you could get it out of the country nor into the USA without all the I's dotted and T's crossed. My company regularly takes truckloads of feathers to USFWS in Atlanta so they can go through them looking for endangered bird feathers and all the paperwork matches. They're very serious about any animal parts coming into the USA.
I personally haven't been on safari in Africa but several of my friends have and all ended up shooting animals that weren't planned but the opportunity arose and the PH offered for the game fee. One friend nearly doubled the cost of his safari doing that and his wife nearly divorced him when she saw the total.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Maybe the coming lesson is that we ignore the homework and trust the guide/outfitter/ph/landowner/officials at our own peril.

I too completely get the tendency to just believe the outfitter is automatically honest...obeys laws...never cheats...knows the regs inside-out....etc. If he doesn't and we end up killing an animal which should not have been killed...who is culpable? If we step into Yellowstone on the assurances of our guide and manage to kill Mr 395 illegally, do we skate and does the guide take it up the tailpipe? I easily see the issues and difficulty in trying to evaluate the legality of everything we do under the advice/guidance of another, but I will stand and contend that I know of a dentist who today wishes he'd made a better attempt at doing just that. If he made an error of judgment and killed an illegal lion at the behest of his ph, does that absolve him of guilt?

And again for the record: I've no idea whether he really killed a lion legally or otherwise. I'm as clueless as you. The media can't be trusted, yet we have to contend with what they tell the world about us as hunters. I don't care to be branded a bloodthirsty killer of animals to satiate my endless ego. I WANT this guy to be innocent and hope many are jumping to conclusions. If most of the background information is right, and if this kill proves to be illegal...I will be spending a lot of time explaining to my non-hunting friends, clients and others that there is more than one type of hunter in the woods. We are not alike, and many of us don't need to enter settings where the legal/social outcome might be way worse than we ever imagined.

I'll go in for the cleaning and avoid the root canal.

 

[rodney482]

Jericho has been poached, brother to Cecil. Just saw the report.

Botswana has suspended all Lion hunting.

I too read Palmer was hunting Leopard

 

[realunlucky]

I personally haven't been on safari in Africa but several of my friends have and all ended up shooting animals that weren't planned but the opportunity arose and the PH offered for the game fee.

This is typically how they try and make money on prepackaged safaris. It's happened with a couple guys I know too. Animal comes in visa card comes out haha. Doubtful any truth will come out of this witch hunt

 

[Obi-wanshinobi]

Jericho has been poached, brother to Cecil. Just saw the report.

Botswana has suspended all Lion hunting.

I too read Palmer was hunting Leopard

This is what a researcher posted on Jericho.


"He looks alive and well to me as far as I can tell," said Brent Stapelkamp, field researcher for the Hwange Lion Research Project which is monitoring the lion with a GPS tag.

 

[rodney482]

Thats exactly how one of my buddies ended up with a giraffe in his trophy room

This is typically how they try and make money on prepackaged safaris. It's happened with a couple guys I know too. Animal comes in visa card comes out haha. Doubtful any truth will come out of this witch hunt

 

[rodney482]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/01/world/cecil-the-lion-brother-jericho-illegally-killed/

This is what a researcher posted on Jericho.


"He looks alive and well to me as far as I can tell," said Brent Stapelkamp, field researcher for the Hwange Lion Research Project which is monitoring the lion with a GPS tag.

 

[Obi-wanshinobi]

C'mon guys

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/aug/01/jericho-not-dead-cecil-the-lion-zimbabwe

Despite reports that Cecil the lion’s brother Jericho had been shot dead by a poacher, a field researcher at Hwange Lion Research said on Saturday: “He looks alive and well.” Another conservation worker said the lion had been seen with a female earlier in the day, “probably mating”.

 

[69ChrisCraft]

Maybe the coming lesson is that we ignore the homework and trust the guide/outfitter/ph/landowner/officials at our own peril.

I too completely get the tendency to just believe the outfitter is automatically honest...obeys laws...never cheats...knows the regs inside-out....etc. If he doesn't and we end up killing an animal which should not have been killed...who is culpable? If we step into Yellowstone on the assurances of our guide and manage to kill Mr 395 illegally, do we skate and does the guide take it up the tailpipe? I easily see the issues and difficulty in trying to evaluate the legality of everything we do under the advice/guidance of another, but I will stand and contend that I know of a dentist who today wishes he'd made a better attempt at doing just that. If he made an error of judgment and killed an illegal lion at the behest of his ph, does that absolve him of guilt?

And again for the record: I've no idea whether he really killed a lion legally or otherwise. I'm as clueless as you. The media can't be trusted, yet we have to contend with what they tell the world about us as hunters. I don't care to be branded a bloodthirsty killer of animals to satiate my endless ego. I WANT this guy to be innocent and hope many are jumping to conclusions. If most of the background information is right, and if this kill proves to be illegal...I will be spending a lot of time explaining to my non-hunting friends, clients and others that there is more than one type of hunter in the woods. We are not alike, and many of us don't need to enter settings where the legal/social outcome might be way worse than we ever imagined.

I'll go in for the cleaning and avoid the root canal.

Not to single you out Kevin but you are clearly viewing this situation from scenarios in which you can relate...which is entirely natural. That being said...

Hwange is not Yellowstone. Zimbabwe is not the U.S.

If the basis of your post lies with the "legality" of the hunt then it is flawed to begin with. To understand Zim and most Southern African countries you have to take the very foundation of what you know of how our society is structured and throw it out the window.

Laws, boundaries, permits, etc mean nothing when they are either not recognized, open for interpretation, or are instituted in such a way as to encourage bribery. That is their societal structure. That is how they live and operate.

I had many in depth discussions with South Africans and Zimbabweans. If there was one common thread amongst both the blacks and whites I spoke with its that they believe the "Western" world (U.S. in particular) is nothing but an enabler. We have to stop seeing their world from our perspective. We can't pick and choose which humanitarian/wildlife/political topic we feel is worthy of our time and money. They need to figure things out for themselves.