Cecil

[wapitibob]

When a hunter insists on checking every document an outfitter and his guide are required to possess for a hunt, even in the USA, it'll be the first time.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I agree that I see it from my perspective...I don't own any others.

What I've consistently tried to determine is why people will enter these places and hunt in what appears to be a semi-lawless or ad-hock regulatory setting. I wonder why they willingly (or dare I say blindly?) take on these risks when they know the potential for trouble. What real joy or true adventure is there in dodging trouble on the way to killing a conveniently placed lion? I'm trying to understand the impossible apparently, which is what transpires inside the mind of a man who wants a trophy animal so badly he will go into such places and risk the legal, political, social, financial and whatever other consequences which happen here on American soil...hang Zimbabwe. This guy may not have broken any laws, yet he put himself in a situation and made decisions which you know he would change...if he could now. His life is more or less wrecked currently. Of course the flipping media played a part. So did the country of Zimbabwe. So did a possibly rogue PH or contact. The consequences are all playing out here for him...and certainly for us if we lose hunting opportunities in Zimbabwe or other countries which suddenly see their animals as having far more tourism potential (than hunting) and are about to react like South Carolina did to the Confederate flag....shame it and take it down.

Great discussion and I appreciate the cooler heads here.

 

[rodney482]

My link was from cnn.. Geesh

C'mon guys

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/aug/01/jericho-not-dead-cecil-the-lion-zimbabwe

Despite reports that Cecil the lion’s brother Jericho had been shot dead by a poacher, a field researcher at Hwange Lion Research said on Saturday: “He looks alive and well.” Another conservation worker said the lion had been seen with a female earlier in the day, “probably mating”.

 

[realunlucky]

Kevin to me four things symbolize Africa to me. Cape buffalo, lion, elephant, and rhinoceros. If I get an opportunity to harvest one fair chase and my wallet can handle it, make a spot on the wall. Rules are continually changing over there that is half of a Ph responsibility to make sure the rules are kept, the other half keeping you safe. As simple as that. In reflection all parties would change some decisions that were made but liberal media is sure spinning it for a soap box platform

 

[realunlucky]

My link was from cnn.. Greesh

When was the last time CNN reporter embellished the truth for a better story?

 

[Kevin Dill]

When a hunter insists on checking every document an outfitter and his guide are required to possess for a hunt, even in the USA, it'll be the first time.

Agreed and 3 questions:

1. Should these be checked more often or copies automatically provided? You know you can go online and determine whether a physician is licensed properly and has the credentials to do his job...along with any violations or disciplinary actions.

2. If a hunter employs an outfitter or PH to assist him and it ends in an illegal kill, should the hunter be legally liable if the guide/PH (he hired) played a part in it...or does the hunter walk away?

3. How much responsibility does the hunter bear for hunting within the laws of the venue, regardless of who guides him?

Much of this has little to do with preexisting documents. It has to do with in-the-field actions. That's why a guy had better know...KNOW before shooting. Think about it. Had this dentist been detained immediately he might well be sitting in a Zimbabwe cell today...victim of a society which can manipulate the enforcement or interpretation or laws...and being the captured whipping boy for Zimbabwe and a world of rabid anti-hunters and ARA-types to both prosecute and persecute. Maybe he got lucky...debatable I know.

realunlucky: I sincerely hope you get to go after your dream in a fair-chase Africa scenario. That's getting so hard to achieve these days!

 

[Darren Best]

Most you guys are no different than the hang em high crowd storming through Facebook and Twitter.

None of you have any reliable evidence or eye witness experience as to what actually happened. You really think news sources are going to give you absolute facts and truth?

Many of you seem to not understand at all the completely fluid situation that third world countries live in. We are in a bubble here in the states and it is our arrogance that assumes the rest of the world is like us. The law is what ever they say it is according to who ever is in power at the time and how much you are willing to pay.

Do you think the dentist is going to get any fair or impartial justice in Zimbabwe? Yeah as much justice as you or I would get in South America or Iran. It's all about dollars there, money and power rule all.

The losers in this situation are wildlife and hunting as a whole.

Until we learn to stand together, we won't save our heritage.

Time and again I see you guys have differences of opinion over baiting, trapping, long range, bows, trophy etc. etc.. Someone ALWAYS disagrees with how someone else does something.

Make no mistake gentlemen, we are at war with factions that want to end hunting completely, once and for all. If we do not stand together, we will fall.

Without trophy hunting in Africa, many species would already be extinct. How much money did you donate to African wildlife lately?

 

[realunlucky]

Darren when someone strays from my ethics code I cannot and willnot support them or thier actions.

 

[IdahoElk]

I agree that I see it from my perspective...I don't own any others.

What I've consistently tried to determine is why people will enter these places and hunt in what appears to be a semi-lawless or ad-hock regulatory setting. I wonder why they willingly (or dare I say blindly?) take on these risks when they know the potential for trouble. What real joy or true adventure is there in dodging trouble on the way to killing a conveniently placed lion? I'm trying to understand the impossible apparently, which is what transpires inside the mind of a man who wants a trophy animal so badly he will go into such places and risk the legal, political, social, financial and whatever other consequences which happen here on American soil...hang Zimbabwe. This guy may not have broken any laws, yet he put himself in a situation and made decisions which you know he would change...if he could now. His life is more or less wrecked currently. Of course the flipping media played a part. So did the country of Zimbabwe. So did a possibly rogue PH or contact. The consequences are all playing out here for him...and certainly for us if we lose hunting opportunities in Zimbabwe or other countries which suddenly see their animals as having far more tourism potential (than hunting) and are about to react like South Carolina did to the Confederate flag....shame it and take it down.

Great discussion and I appreciate the cooler heads here.

Kevin,I think what motivated him to kill this Lion is probably a lot different than what drives most here.

 

[realunlucky]

Kevin,I think what motivated him to kill this Lion is probably a lot different than what drives most here.

Why did he do it? ASSumption is the mother of all ****ups.

 

[wapitibob]

"2. If a hunter employs an outfitter or PH to assist him and it ends in an illegal kill, should the hunter be legally liable if the guide/PH (he hired) played a part in it...or does the hunter walk away?"

They are absolutely liable here, which is how a bunch of whitetail deer hunters get in trouble.

My point was to address the "the hunter needs to know" comments. The hunter has no way of knowing short of demanding to see any and all docs, and that's not going to happen.
As for this lion episode, only 2-3 people were there and really know what happened, and last I read, none of them were talking. So pretty much everything in the media is bull crap, conjecture, and/or outright lies.

 

[tipsntails7]

When a hunter insists on checking every document an outfitter and his guide are required to possess for a hunt, even in the USA, it'll be the first time.

I disagree, and in the USA is a completely different story. Before I hunt with anyone I need to see your guides license, my license and tags, if on private property, landowner permission, and regs regarding the unit that I will be hunting in. 50% of that I can get and verify before I even set foot in the state. I've been on 2 hunts that were not DIY, one in Alaska ( by law) one in Canada. It's my money, if I want to see the paper work you better have it available.

Maybe you guys are to trusting, or you think people are better then they are. I've heard enough stories that I'm not gonna be caught holding the bag because some shady outfitter drops me off on a guys property he has no business guiding on.

Africa is a different ball game, and really doesn't compare to here.

 

[tipsntails7]

Most you guys are no different than the hang em high crowd storming through Facebook and Twitter.

None of you have any reliable evidence or eye witness experience as to what actually happened. You really think news sources are going to give you absolute facts and truth?

Many of you seem to not understand at all the completely fluid situation that third world countries live in. We are in a bubble here in the states and it is our arrogance that assumes the rest of the world is like us. The law is what ever they say it is according to who ever is in power at the time and how much you are willing to pay.

Do you think the dentist is going to get any fair or impartial justice in Zimbabwe? Yeah as much justice as you or I would get in South America or Iran. It's all about dollars there, money and power rule all.

The losers in this situation are wildlife and hunting as a whole.

Until we learn to stand together, we won't save our heritage.

Time and again I see you guys have differences of opinion over baiting, trapping, long range, bows, trophy etc. etc.. Someone ALWAYS disagrees with how someone else does something.

Make no mistake gentlemen, we are at war with factions that want to end hunting completely, once and for all. If we do not stand together, we will fall.

Without trophy hunting in Africa, many species would already be extinct. How much money did you donate to African wildlife lately?

The only time I disagree is when it is illegal.... That's not something I will be swayed upon. Whether this kill is an example of that remains to be seen.

 

[Darren Best]

How many actual facts do any of you have that he strayed from ethics codes?

All you have is secondhand information from sources that don't like hunting.

 

[tipsntails7]

How many actual facts do any of you have that he strayed from ethics codes?

All you have is secondhand information from sources that don't like hunting.

As many as you. I'm not going off ethics code, unless you were there, everything is second hand, until he comes out of hiding from wherever he is and meets this we won't know anything, his PH and the landowner have been charged.

 

[topher89]

How many actual facts do any of you have that he strayed from ethics codes?

All you have is secondhand information from sources that don't like hunting.

I think a lot of people, myself included, are troubled by his previous game violations. The whole bear thing is a red flag and taints his credibility in this situation, whether or not he actually did something wrong this time. It paints a picture of someone who is either ignorant of the rules, willing to go against them for a big trophy or someone who doesn't give a damn about the rules to begin with.

Not enough information yet to make a real decision though.

 

[realunlucky]

How many actual facts do any of you have that he strayed from ethics codes?

All you have is secondhand information from sources that don't like hunting.

I didn't say whether I support him or not. I said just because are hunting rights are under attack doesn't mean I'll always be in support of everyone everytime. Just because I wouldn't hunt that way doesn't mean it violates ethics. Sadly ethical standards vary widely and some use the term only when it's beneficial to thier current situation.

 

[MuleyFever]

Most you guys are no different than the hang em high crowd storming through Facebook and Twitter.

None of you have any reliable evidence or eye witness experience as to what actually happened. You really think news sources are going to give you absolute facts and truth?

Many of you seem to not understand at all the completely fluid situation that third world countries live in. We are in a bubble here in the states and it is our arrogance that assumes the rest of the world is like us. The law is what ever they say it is according to who ever is in power at the time and how much you are willing to pay.

Do you think the dentist is going to get any fair or impartial justice in Zimbabwe? Yeah as much justice as you or I would get in South America or Iran. It's all about dollars there, money and power rule all.

The losers in this situation are wildlife and hunting as a whole.

Until we learn to stand together, we won't save our heritage.

Time and again I see you guys have differences of opinion over baiting, trapping, long range, bows, trophy etc. etc.. Someone ALWAYS disagrees with how someone else does something.

Make no mistake gentlemen, we are at war with factions that want to end hunting completely, once and for all. If we do not stand together, we will fall.

Without trophy hunting in Africa, many species would already be extinct. How much money did you donate to African wildlife lately?

I really don't see anyone here saying he is innocent or guilty. I see a lot of opinions on the level of responsibility the hunter and guides have. I see people considering his unethical past. I see people who want the hunter to face the questions so we can get more info. This guy needs to face his charges. He was party to a questionable hunt and he holds some responsibility. If I am in the car and my friend commits a crime I am involved and I will have to face the questions and prove my innocence.

As far as donating money, I have donated none and don't plan to. However, no amount of money makes it ok to go over there and hunt illegally if that is the case.

 

[Darren Best]

An opinion given on a public forum is a public opinion and in the world of internet mob justice, it's the same thing as a conviction. His past has nothing to do with what happened in Africa, you know darn well that any defense attorney would have it thrown out in a blink of an eye. Again, information gathered from questionable sources to taint the suspects character.

Haven't you noticed that each time this enormous outcry happens, it gets bigger and more vile each time. I find it very disheartening to see it happening here as well. Also haven't you noticed that each time it happens, they were wrong.

Think about it gentlemen.

On that note, a little levity might be in order.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I've heard everything about the Palmer incident, from the worst media portrayals to the guys who would anoint him the defacto GOP nominee for president. I feel the truth lies somewhere between the extremes (I hope) and that we will never know it. To discuss, conjecture, hypothesize and evaluate is certainly human and not necessarily bad if it causes us to open our minds and eyes. There are guys who think no opinion is valid or should be expressed...and that's their opinion. I do think that responsible hunters are talking...discussing...and trying to make sense of this entire matter. I know the liberal media and the burn-'em-alive types want the fire to rage, while another group would see the whole matter quiet down and avoid discussion of it. I personally don't think it's going to go away quickly, and I'm foreseeing definite consequences coming to hunters, hunting and wildlife. Haven't I already seen a statement from the Zim government that all bowhunting has now been stopped, unless allowed under some special approval? One lion....and one huge bonfire...costing us all more than we thought. There's plenty of blame to go around, but again....I DON'T know where most of it belongs. I'm a serious bowhunter looking at this from a strong desire to understand the motivations for, and what may have happened. Meanwhile, Dr Palmer is living out his worst nightmare which could have been much worse if Zimbabwe had nabbed him before he departed.

Love the zebras!