Cartridge for new hunter

[Formidilosus]

My point was that the Rokslide crew is completely ignoring the individual, the individual's input, and the individual's recoil tolerance. Let the individual choose what to use (assuming it's legal) whether it is the 223, 243, 25-06, 6.5 CM, 7mm-08, etc instead of ramming (generic) your opinion down the new shooter's throat. From there it is simple enough to "tweak" things to make shooting more enjoyable such as a Limbsaver, low-recoil ammo, a properly fitted rifle, a suppressor, proper instruction, etc.

The issue is that I have yet to see anyone, anywhere shoot better or the same with more recoil once you get off the bench. There are bullets in .224, .243, and .264 that are phenomenal killers and have no issue with any shot angle or presentation. Therefore, there is no benefit for a new hunter (or for most) to use something that recoils more. Once sufficient tissue damage has been achieved, hitting is everything.

Not disagreeing with the benefits of lower recoil for all of us, recoil's impact on us, etc. But damn, we are all different and it is surprising that no one on this site can recognize that simple fact (or refuses to).

Is it really that they can’t recognize that people are diffenrwt? Or is it they are saying increasing recoil does nothing but hurt performance?

To be clear- increasing recoil, decreases performance. This is for everyone, everywhere. Someone may shoot a heavy recoiling rifle pretty well, but they do shoot it worse than the same exact rifle with less recoil.


My question to you is- objectively what do you believe increasing recoil helps you do on demand?

Side bar to helpfully demonstrate this point:
I was at the range and watched a man teach a woman how to shoot a rifle (both were comparable in size). The woman was doing great with the 22 LR. The man then told the woman that the next rifle is extremely powerful and has brutal recoil. She jerked at the trigger pull, told him that is was too much, and refused to shoot anymore. That rifle? The bone crushing 223 Rem (bolt action). That man poisoned the well by spouting his BS to her. She would have been much better off shooting the 223 and then providing feedback on recoil level (not like going straight to a lightweight 338 WM which would have been cruel).

Yes, people do stupid things when teaching people. But ho matter how you slice it, that women will shoot a .22rf better than the 223, and the 223 better than a 243, and a 243 better than a 6.5cm, etc, etc.

 

[timstl]

I'm 5'4", around 150 lbs. My dad bought me a 270, which was my primary rifle for about 15 years and I still use it on occasion. I was about the same height and a little bit lighter when I first started shooting it. Good first gun because it's versatile.

One of my newer rifles is a 6.5 Creedmoor (which I know isn't on your list). I probably would have been a better shooter when I was getting started with something closer to the 6.5. The recoil on a 270 isn't bad by any means, but I can practice all day with the 6.5 without developing any flinch or getting sore.

I don't own a .243 but that would probably be my pick if low recoil is a priority. If not, I'd choose the .270.

 

[2rocky]

.243 or 7-08

A .243 is a great starter gun but I wouldn't rule out a 7mm-08 either.

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/243-winchester-versus-7mm-08-remington#:~:text=The 243 Winchester shoots flatter,use the same parent case.

I lean towards the 7mm08 because more bullet weight thus more energy. A 140-150 gr. bullet in a 7mm08 factory load is adequate for elk under 300 yds with good shot selection. That load will kill hogs and deer all day.

I'd likely not recommend a .243 for elk . not as much energy down range.

Recoil wise 7mm08 is still mild at 12#

the . 243 with a 100-grain bullet produces about 9 pounds of recoil using a 7.5-pound gun. A 7-08 using a 120-grain bullet out of the same weight gun produces just over 12 pounds of recoil.

as a comparison

Assuming a 7 lb rifle for both calibers, the . 300 Win Mag has approximately 35 ft-lbs of recoil, while the 30-06 is slapping your shoulder with 23 ft-lbs.

And

With the 165-grain loads mentioned above, the .308 Win. will produce about 17 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy while the .30-06 will produce about 20 ft.-lbs., according to Chuck Hawks’ recoil table.

So, it really depends on the person and how they feel the recoil, as well as whether they've prepared for shooting before they held a gun in their hands. But if we were to estimate, we would say that a lightly build woman should handle a 12-foot-pound of recoil, whereas 17 pounds should be okay for most men.

 

[Rob5589]

I'm not here to die on this hill, but I'm curious why that would be a poor place to start vs buying a second gun, scope, and ammo? A 150gr 308 load with a brake would be comfortable for any new shooter.
OP did mention a couple comments down about shooting medium game and maybe elk with it.

Form summed it up. I shot for years with brakes alongside other shooters. My hearing has been permanently damaged even with doubled up ear pro. That and the concussive nature of the brake causes flinching issues with new shooters. I have seen it first hand and experienced it myself. I would rather buy a second gun, if necessary, than subject my kids/family to a brake. That or buy something they can manage recoil wise.

 

[Yoder]

When my son was 12 he weighed about 90lbs soaking wet. He shot a Remington 760 30-06. I bought some reduced recoil ammo and cut the stock down to fit him. I don't think it matters that much. You can adjust the ammo quite a bit. The 30-06 has a huge range of bullet weights. From 110 to 220 gr. Right now I'm shooting a 270 and the wife is using a 243. both are accurate and murder deer.

 

[Crghss]

I would choose .270, get managed recoil loads if need be.

No sure why people think shooting a smaller caliber ALWAYS make EVERYONE a more accurate shooter.

Everyone will shoot a 22lr better than a .223? Not sure why that would be true.

Shooting a .223 vs 7mm rem mag I can see the logic. Although I don’t believe it’s absolutely true for everyone.

 

[Gen273]

.308 or 7mm-08

 

[Tmac]

99% of men are recoil intolerant.....

I resemble that. I hate recoil.

 

[TheGDog]

Also, regarding

One thing I noticed with kids and some women is they do not like side port muzzle brakes because of the blast some of which is directed back at shooter. I would watch for that when teaching someone to shoot a rifle.

Hell, I'm a Grown @ss man, and I don't like the reDONKulous concussion being directed at me either!

When CA stupidly said that the standard A2 flash hider was somehow evil... I first acquired, I think it was, a Yankee Hill Machinery muzzle brake that was legal. No thanks! I quickly ended-up changing it up to a thread protector on my AR.

And that's just a lil .223. Don't even wanna think about what it must be like to touch off a magnum round with a brake. Funk that! You have to figure that for solo backpack hunting.... you're not always going to have the opportunity to slap on your hearing protection if a jump shot opportunity arises.

Therefore.. to me.. it just seems logical (since in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornistan I can't have a damn supressor like all the dang rest of my countrymen) to just NOT ever have a break on your rifle, for that reason. To minimize potential harm from the concussion wave. My hearing already isn't what it was from being a Car Audio enthusiast, and also a trauma that resulted in a basal skull fx one time, that perfed my eardrum on one side. So I want to try to be as cautious, within reason, as I can be about the sound levels, as much as possible.

If I'm lucky.... I might even survive on this Earth long enough to hear a grandchild some day! But it'll be awhile cause my boy is only 15 ATM.

 

[Pharmseller]

I’m a big hairy man and I hate recoil.

7mm-08 is comfortable, I look forward to my outings.

7mm Rem Mag is doable for a few rounds but I don’t like it.




P

 

[Rob5589]

I’m a big hairy man and I hate recoil.

7mm-08 is comfortable, I look forward to my outings.

7mm Rem Mag is doable for a few rounds but I don’t like it.




P

Same, although not that hairy. Just sold my 7RM and bought another 7/08.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Form summed it up. I shot for years with brakes alongside other shooters. My hearing has been permanently damaged even with doubled up ear pro. That and the concussive nature of the brake causes flinching issues with new shooters. I have seen it first hand and experienced it myself. I would rather buy a second gun, if necessary, than subject my kids/family to a brake. That or buy something they can manage recoil wise.

Form also said that the right 223 bullet has no issues on elk and is fine from any shot angle or presentation... so I'll go ahead file that advise where it belongs.
Muzzle brakes aren't THAT bad. Yeah if you're shooting under a low metal overhang with 5-port it rings like crazy but out in the open with a standard radial I've never heard any group of adults with modern ear pro complain about the noise and recoil as much as on this thread. At the end of the day you're trying to kill something immediately. That requires accuracy and energy. The mountains of CO are littered with unrecovered dead deer and elk because somebody compromised on one of those two factors. The way I see it, there are no "kid/women" calibers separate from the men. It's either ethical/reliable for the target species or its not.

 

[Rob5589]

Form also said that the right 223 bullet has no issues on elk and is fine from any shot angle or presentation... so I'll go ahead file that advise where it belongs.
Muzzle brakes aren't THAT bad. Yeah if you're shooting under a low metal overhang with 5-port it rings like crazy but out in the open with a standard radial I've never heard any group of adults with modern ear pro complain about the noise and recoil as much as on this thread. At the end of the day you're trying to kill something immediately. That requires accuracy and energy. The mountains of CO are littered with unrecovered dead deer and elk because somebody compromised on one of those two factors. The way I see it, there are no "kid/women" calibers separate from the men. It's either ethical/reliable for the target species or its not.

Oh boy...

 

[Formidilosus]

Form also said that the right 223 bullet has no issues on elk and is fine from any shot angle or presentation... so I'll go ahead file that advise where it belongs.

If only there was the largest thread on RS going back years with dozens of elk killed with 223’s…. And multiple Moose. And bears.

But, please tell me the shot angle you think doesn’t work on elk with a 223, and I’ll happily showing multiple with that exact shot.

 

[ceejay]

308 of the ones you listed. Only other real considerations would 6.5cm and 7-08. Add a Limbasaver Airtech recoil pad to the rifle if you can ..... they really do make a noticeable difference. The 308 is a heck of a functional round and checks the boxes for lots of advantages.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Nothing is more versatile than the .308 in the short action class of cartridges. Choose wisely with the proper barrel twist and ammo from 120 grains to 200+ grains is available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[jcaud]

Can’t speak to bear size game as my experience is mostly limited to deer sized game.

My first rifle was a Savage Model 10 in .243. I started shooting smaller cartridges with the old man when I was super young and the .243 gave me no issues and I used it for years on coyote and deer. As I got older I felt the need to buy “bigger and cooler” cartridges and got away from using it, and have shot several deer with these other guns.

However, the last few years I find myself reaching for the old .243 when I go to the range, and it’s starting to see more time than any other rifle I have. It’s fun to shoot and I know it like the back of my hand and would have no issues whatsoever using it on deer sized game. Light recoil and is easy to practice good and repetitive shot sequences. In the next year it may very well turn into my full time deer hunter again.

With that said, I have a Christensen 7mm Rem Mag now, and lately I’ve been considering selling it and buying a 7mm-08 due to the love that is shared for them on here. I’d consider that for a little more as well. But all good options!

 

[nltr]

Thanks everyone for the input in this. Here’s what I’ve gathered so far… we just need to buy three rifles.

1) A .223 to start out or for target practice.
2) A .308 or 7mm-08, and reconsider 6.5 creed
3) A .270 for myself.

 

[Gmr777]

People get to hung up on the size of the cartridge over the actual ballistics of the cartridge and the accuracy that the shooter can have with the gun. Speed is just as important to energy down range.

A 243 is more than enough gun for most game and compared to the 270 out to 400 yards is almost ballistically equivalent and is flatter with minimally less energy. I am personally a big fan of both and think the 6.5 CM is here to stay. It’s been out long enough and the ballistics and bullet availability in 6.5 are better than than 243 and 270 IMO. But if it’s between those 2 I’d personally go 243 as you can shoot it all day long and as shown below ballistics are just as good if shooting out to 400. The below are reload data for my 243 and buddies 270:

 

[swMontanaHunter]

7mm-08 is a good one!