Bundy case- prosecutors tried to rig trial

[gelton]

Taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized society. If you don't like it then feel free to leave our great country. If you don't want to pay taxes go live in Somalia or any other country where they live by the mindset of "my gun is bigger than yours". See how you like it.

Never said I was against taxes. I said I was against INCOME taxes. What is income? Income is defined as a gain. If you trade your labor for paycheck where is the gain? Unless of course your labor is owned by someone other than you.

If INCOME taxes is what makes a civilized society then how in the hell did the USA make it from 1776 to 1913 without one?

Are you aware that 100% of our income tax is used to pay interest on the federal debt to the federal reserve? Is that "civilized"?

All the "services" that people claim income taxes pay for is BS. Property taxes pay for schools, state taxes pay for local services and gasoline taxes pay for the roads and highways.

So what again is so civilized about a tax or claim on your labor? Somalia would love to have you.

 

[dotman]

Never said I was against taxes. I said I was against INCOME taxes. What is income? Income is defined as a gain. If you trade your labor for paycheck where is the gain. Unless of course your labor is owned by someone other than you.

If INCOME taxes is what makes a civilized society then how in the hell did the USA make it from 1776 to 1913 without one?

Are you aware that 100% of our income tax is used to pay interest on the federal debt to the federal reserve? Is that "civilized"?

All the "services" that people claim income taxes pay for is BS. Property taxes pay for schools, state taxes pay for local services and gasoline taxes pay for the roads and highways.

So what again is so civilized about a tax or claim on your labor? Somalia would love to have you.

Oh not sure I see it as you, to me we give our labor to gain something or earnings, nothings free and if you can’t provide your labor what are you worth? Labor is purely the effort your willing to put in to earn or gain something. If you don’t like income taxes off of financial earnings then barter your labor for tangible goods and not monetary, easier to not have to claim an income this way.

 

[gelton]

Oh not sure I see it as you, to me we give our labor to gain something or earnings, nothings free and if you can’t provide your labor what are you worth? Labor is purely the effort your willing to put in to earn or gain something. If you don’t like income taxes off of financial earnings then barter your labor for tangible goods and not monetary, easier to not have to claim an income this way.

The supreme court has ruled on the definition of income in:

EISNER v. MACOMBER , 252 U.S. 189 (1920)
Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. R. Co., 240 U.S. 1
DOYLE v. MITCHELL BROS. CO. , 247 U.S. 179 (1918)
SOUTHERN PAC CO. v. LOWE , 247 U.S. 330 (1918)
MERCHANTS' LOAN & TRUST CO. v. SMIETANKA, 255 U.S. 509 (1921)

And nowhere is income defined as wages. Income is defined as a gain or proceed from capitol, stocks, dividends and/or corporate activities.

 

[dotman]

The supreme court has ruled on the definition of income in:

EISNER v. MACOMBER , 252 U.S. 189 (1920)
Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. R. Co., 240 U.S. 1
DOYLE v. MITCHELL BROS. CO. , 247 U.S. 179 (1918)
SOUTHERN PAC CO. v. LOWE , 247 U.S. 330 (1918)
MERCHANTS' LOAN & TRUST CO. v. SMIETANKA, 255 U.S. 509 (1921)

And nowhere is income defined as wages. Income is defined as a gain or proceed from capitol, stocks, dividends and/or corporate activities.

Don’t wages fall under capital?

 

[MtnOyster]

dotman I'm just asking but do you know the Bundys personally?

 

[gelton]

Not according to those supreme court cases. The court also ruled that the 16th amendment gave the government no new taxing authority in Stanton vs. Baltic mining company.

Doesn't mean they wont throw you and me in jail for not paying income taxes but at the same time it doesnt make it right. I just hate the tired ol explanation that without income taxes the US would be like Somalia. We had a very prosperous nation with little to no debt from 1776-1913 and it worked out just fine. And the government was the size the founders envisioned - tiny.

We have the best government money can buy.

 

[dotman]

dotman I'm just asking but do you know the Bundys personally?

Nope but people that try to claim our public lands as their own irritate me, look at the owner of cox communications, he’s trying to rewrite water access laws in MT for his own personal gain. He has blocked access to water that has had a public access easement for a long long time. I get people are anti big gov or gov, I’m not pro gov but I’m pro public lands.

 

[dotman]

Not according to those supreme court cases. The court also ruled that the 16th amendment gave the government no new taxing authority in Stanton vs. Baltic mining company.

Doesn't mean they wont throw you and me in jail for not paying income taxes but at the same time it doesnt make it right. I just hate the tired ol explanation that without income taxes the US would be like Somalia. We had a very prosperous nation with little to no debt from 1776-1913 and it worked out just fine. And the government was the size the founders envisioned - tiny.

We have the best government money can buy.

Oh they will, lol but if the case is so strong why do we still pay taxes on income? I get the to pay our debts but with as many lawyers as we have I’m sure one could obtain the funding to get this settled once and for all.

That also was a very different time then we are currently in, now I don’t agree with everything the gov does or spends money on but our military and infrastructure are vastly improved vs that time period. People also didn’t live or stay where they grew up now like then,in general, and people took care of their neighbors and the elderly much better then as well. Today we live in a different world and our culture has shifted big time compared to that point in time..

 

[Mike7]

I believe the quote below is what he is referring to. Studying and looking at the history and intent of words and our founding, is not promoted in schools seemingly. This kind of critical thinking has been replaced with a kind of brainwashing in many public schools today, where individualism and Constitutional principles are mocked and the all knowing nanny like federal gov't becomes central to life. Where equal rights are replaced with special unequal privileges that are enforced by the gov't. Where gov't is run by career politicians who are repeatedly elected by a public ignorant of the idea of self governance, ignorant of what a Constitutional republic means, personal responsibility, etc. These politicians who enrich themselves from public resources, enslave our children with debt, and not only run a public school system which perpetuates all of this, but also who bring in millions of legal and illegal immigrants who don't have any requirement to learn English, to learn about America, or to be Americans first.

The Bundy's getting some free grazing, as complained about above, seems like a tiny price to pay for the federal government breaking the law in going after them. I only wish that federal agents/attorneys who intentionally break the law in the performance of their job, would be found personally liable. Unless every government employee working here domestically has to follow the law, then we are all at potential risk.

"What is the legal definition of income?"
The term income is defined nowhere in Title 26 of the US Code, which is the law that relates to the "income" tax. The term "income" has repeatedly been held by the courts to indicate "gain on capital" and not receipts, wages or a fee received in exchange for selling an item of property.Mar 29, 2014
The US Supreme Court Definition of Income | aFreeCountry.com

 

[Mike7]

Oops, already answered by Gelton. I was too slow texting.

 

[Broomd]

So what keeps people or neighboring hunters from just all out murdering all those cattle roaming free??

I can tell you if it was happening the way yall describe it those people and their cattle operation wouldn't last long around my neck of the woods, way too many rednecks around here!!

What keeps folks from that kind of behavior with private property is plain old common decency. But none of us tolerate it for long nor should we.
I can tell you that we had a battle with a rancher this Summer. He doesn't even live around here. He is from the Moscow area--about an hour south of us and he grazes his cattle near here for the Summer.
Someone left one of his gates open (he said) and his cows were nightly destroying our place, crashing fences trying to breed my cows, devouring hay...eating all of our grain. The cow pies of mature angus stock are immense and a real mess around a dwelling.
I called the rancher and kindly asked for him to manage his stock and after some grumbling and excuses he gathered some but not all.

After the cow/property trashing behavior continued I called him again, and he said he couldn't do anything about it. "Cattle get out of fences" were his words and he attacked me for not being more patient. This was costing me a lot of money and time. A herd of 12 Angus craps (and eats) a sh*tstorm of biblical proportion over a week.

Finally I called my sheriff and they really reamed the guy. Ordered him to get a local wrangler and warned him that they would sequester his cows at major expense to him. They also knew how patient I had been, I documented all calls and attempts to mitigate. I can't say enough about the deputy that really cared and helped us! He lowered the boom on that guy.
The rancher was here the next day gathering his cows. He sat horseback at the end of my driveway and sent a hand to talk with me. The spineless weasel. He was butthurt about LEO involvement, but the guy left no other choice. The hand was good man and I could tell he was ashamed of his boss's (Father-in-law's) behavior.

 

[Beendare]

Well there are a lot of guys here making statements about the Bundy's based on claims they read in the papers started by;

1) The same gov that was found guilty of trying to railroad them

2) The BLM official that was convicted of illegal acts while at the BLM.

Do you really want to trust those guys for your info?

I dunno the whole Bundy story. Whose to say the BLM guy wasn't extorting ranchers and the Bundys had had enough....sort of changes the narrative, eh?

 

[dotman]

Well there are a lot of guys here making statements about the Bundy's based on claims they read in the papers started by;

1) The same gov that was found guilty of trying to railroad them

2) The BLM official that was convicted of illegal acts while at the BLM.

Do you really want to trust those guys for your info?

I dunno the whole Bundy story. Whose to say the BLM guy wasn't extorting ranchers and the Bundys had had enough....sort of changes the narrative, eh?

Well I think one fact we can all agree on, Bundy grazed his cattle for free for 20 years saving himself $1 million in expenses. Personally I think all the ranchers grazing public lands should be paying market rates and no our family has had this right for 100 years. I also think yearly there should be an option to out bid the current people grazing, earn the most from these lands in a manner that doesn’t destroy the habitat and keep them public. We give away grazing for pennies on the dollar for what market rate is on private ground.

 

[CorbLand]

I don't understand the entire Bundy deal, nor do I really care too. The way I have always seen it is, the Bundys ran their cows on public ground for free for 20 years and when the Government told them to stop and pay their damn share, the Bundys ran around and some how made this out to be the Governments fault. Then they claimed poverty like every farmer/rancher in this world does but you sure as hell never see their tears hit the leather seat of their brand new pickup.

 

[Beendare]

Well I think one fact we can all agree on, Bundy grazed his cattle for free for 20 years saving himself $1 million in expenses. Personally I think all the ranchers grazing public lands should be paying market rates and no our family has had this right for 100 years. I also think yearly there should be an option to out bid the current people grazing, earn the most from these lands in a manner that doesn’t destroy the habitat and keep them public. We give away grazing for pennies on the dollar for what market rate is on private ground.

I agree with your opinion....I've seen terrible overgrazing on public ground in multiple western states......but

Where are you getting the info that Bundy grazed for free for 20 years?

 

[kicker338]

Yup, they are also the same ones trying to close off traditional access points to public land and putting up no trespassing signs on public, can’t stand them.

You don't need to worry about this, the forest service is doing a much better job of closing forest access, gated and water barred roads all over the place.They iven give you a map that says stay on designated roads LOL.

 

[Poser]

Postscript

Cliven Bunny’s former lawyer is now the assistant secretary for fish and wildlife and national parks.

Regardless of your position on the broader issue, I doubt any Hunter has cause for celebration of this appointment.

Karen Budd-Falen, the Bundy Family’s Lawyer, Now Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife, Parks

The American public probably believed that the drama involving the Bundy family was over. Their standoff with the Bureau of Land Management in Bunkerville Nevada in 2014, and their occupation of the Mahleur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon in 2016...

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