BLM on two corners with Private on the other two, ok to cross corner?

[ODB]

being a PLS, this thread has been amusing.

Any more insight? Or just an observation?

 

[ttltown]

being a PLS, this thread has been amusing.

Professional land surveyor or do you own a payday loan store

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk

 

[Trial153]

I look at this from the lenses of common sense, having good will, being neighborly while treating people the way I would want to be treated.

In no reality of my own property ownership, would I ever think of denying my neighbor access in situation such as stepping over corner so he could access his property so why would I treat public land owners any differently ?

The mental gymnastics a needed to quantify why someone’s shoulders “trespassing” on your airspace some how is an infringement on your private property right should tell you all you need to know in this situation.

 

[Bighorner]

Well said

 

[GSPHUNTER]

I look at this from the lenses of common sense, having good will, being neighborly while treating people the way I would want to be treated.

In no reality of my own property ownership, would I ever think of denying my neighbor access in situation such as stepping over corner so he could access his property so why would I treat public land owners any differently ?

The mental gymnastics a needed to quantify why someone’s shoulders “trespassing” on your airspace some how is an infringement on your private property right should tell you all you need to know in this situation.

There you go throwing common sense and logic into the equation.

 

[usalsfyre]

I'm amazed at how much credit some here are willing to give "the left" for being so clever and cunning. LOL

There’s a good chunk of actual leftist that are out hunting. Democrats are not leftist.

 

[cod007]

There’s a good chunk of actual leftist that are out hunting. Democrats are not leftist.

Yeah, hunting for a city to burn a few blocks of, or stores to loot.... for their Democrat friends.

 

[Bighorner]

CNelk just duplicated my ice fishing scenario above showing the differences from position to position. But with some Tuesday humor, he knew there would be a difference as he has all kinds of ice fishing spots loaded up and I'm sure the GPS has brought him to a location, and it says "Here" but 10 feet from "Here" is his auger hole from the week prior. Cnelk, you drilling new holes 10 feet away? Or drilling next to the week old hole?

What your scenario didn't incorporate is how the person uploaded or keyed in the actual coordinate of the section corner and how those values were derived. I'm not sure if you saw the link I provided, but it has a few counties in CO, but not all. Those counties are helping us, and is a good link. If your county isn't listed then you're forced to a click on Onx, or a click with google to extract a coordinate which surely will be a couple feet off at best. Will it get you there? Most likely as long as you understand you may drift into private lands.


Many corners as I mentioned don't have geodetic values on them i.e Latitude and Longitude. Remember, surveyors work with a plat. That plat is defined by bearings, distances, etc. If you hand me a plat that has bearings and distances how can I use my GPS to find the corner if I don't have published values? Simple answer, I create my own coordinate system to find them. If you're lucky, once my survey is done, I will put them on the national grid, but most times I won't. So you're back to "how to I get sub inch positions on a corner?" Answer....... Depends but measuring a point with Onx then navigating to it is the egg before the chicken.

That makes sense. How do you find the initial point to use the bearings and distances if you dont have coordinates for it or any way to calculate with bearings and distances.

What is you rough average for how close your bearings and distances will get you to the pin over say a half mile from a survey completed in the 70s or 80s using a survey GPS?

 

[usalsfyre]

Yeah, hunting for a city to burn a few blocks of, or stores to loot.... for their Democrat friends.

Why do y’all only have like two jokes?

 

[HvyBeams]

So do this….

Anyone can open OnX and walk outside to the nearest property line. See how close you are.

Be sure to zoom in and then ‘Mark your Location’

See what it says

I zoomed in like you said and it said reasonable doubt. Weird

 

[kwackkillncrew]

Any more insight? Or just an observation?

more of a observation. 1 because all states are different and 2 i dont feel like explaining how boundary issues and what not work when there is a possibility with multiple corners being set for one corner when you have surveyors who think they are better then others. just because you found a corner doesnt mean anything. Have you done the research to see if that corner fits with the other property corners in the area? is it an original corner? has it been disturbed? Did somebody yank it out and move it to a different spot that they like better? Not all property corners are easy to find they arent always flagged up with a sign that says "i am a property corner, jump me". When you jumped so said corner did you actually find it or take out a metal detector and dig it up or did you just jump over where onx had the property lines crossing?

i get it people want to access public land what ever means possible as do i. But trying to pretend that you know that is the actual property corner just because you found 1 rebar or aluminum cap in the ground is a little ridiculous.

And i should have just kept observing....

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Just get a helicopter and you’ll be fine. Have fun.

 

[ODB]

more of a observation. 1 because all states are different and 2 i dont feel like explaining how boundary issues and what not work when there is a possibility with multiple corners being set for one corner when you have surveyors who think they are better then others. just because you found a corner doesnt mean anything. Have you done the research to see if that corner fits with the other property corners in the area? is it an original corner? has it been disturbed? Did somebody yank it out and move it to a different spot that they like better? Not all property corners are easy to find they arent always flagged up with a sign that says "i am a property corner, jump me". When you jumped so said corner did you actually find it or take out a metal detector and dig it up or did you just jump over where onx had the property lines crossing?

i get it people want to access public land what ever means possible as do i. But trying to pretend that you know that is the actual property corner just because you found 1 rebar or aluminum cap in the ground is a little ridiculous.

And i should have just kept observing....

All good. Appreciate the perspective.

for some reason I have a fascination with surveying so anything related is interesting to me.

 

[Coveyleader]

more of a observation. 1 because all states are different and 2 i dont feel like explaining how boundary issues and what not work when there is a possibility with multiple corners being set for one corner when you have surveyors who think they are better then others. just because you found a corner doesnt mean anything. Have you done the research to see if that corner fits with the other property corners in the area? is it an original corner? has it been disturbed? Did somebody yank it out and move it to a different spot that they like better? Not all property corners are easy to find they arent always flagged up with a sign that says "i am a property corner, jump me". When you jumped so said corner did you actually find it or take out a metal detector and dig it up or did you just jump over where onx had the property lines crossing?

And i should have just kept observing....

Excellent information, and truth be told, land surveying is more about research than actual field time.

@ Bighorn as mentioned above, there are a lot of things to consider in order to find a corner. Like a good journal, there should be good descriptions on how the corner was set along with information on how to get there. It is normally referenced back to other corners in the area. The problem is, many of the references could be long gone. If you look at the front range of Colorado, the I-25 corridor looks nothing like it did 30 years ago and that only puts you to the 90's

Once you have everything input and calculated, it should get you close, but as mentioned above, a good metal detector is a tool few go without.

This has been a good discussion for sure. If I could add to some comments above on respect for property by Trial, I find when there are elk or big game involved, ranchers can get really cranky and "everything is theirs"

 

[Carpenterant]

I can’t speak for other states, but, in Arizona it’s the property owners responsibility to mark and post their boundaries otherwise it assumed it’s ok to go on any private property. It’s actually quite onerous on the landowner because a sign in one place isn’t sufficient. I looked into this several years ago and the land access issue comes from English common law where it was also assumed that if you didn’t have a stone wall around your property you welcomed people. The whole country was once like this but states have started implementing their own rules.

as far as corner crossing/hopping in Arizona multiple game wardens have told me to go ahead and worst that can happen is you’re asked to leave if it isn’t posted properly. No full land boundaries I’ve seen are posted properly

 

[Bighorner]

As was stated above finding a rebar may be a little shaky and there is a lot that goes into surveying, but a set BLM brass monument is pretty hard to dispute unless it appears to have been physically moved. It is beyond the layman to try argue against set government monuments. It goes without saying that you need to educate yourself enough to read the brass cap.

It is important to remember the real crux of the agruement is not being able to find a corner, but the air space above the corner that is crossed. The idea that the corner cant be found without physically trespassing is not the hold up.

Not to beat an obviously dead horse.

 

[TheGDog]

You guys are asking the messenger. I'm just relaying what the SC has said and what landowners hinge their claim on:

1. Landowners have exclusive control of the airspace above their property.
The controlling U.S. Supreme Court case is US v. Causby (1946), which concerned planes descending to low elevations over private property. The US Supreme Court held that there was a taking of private property by occupying the airspace immediately above the property:

“If the landowner is to have full enjoyment of the land, he must have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere. Otherwise buildings could not be erected, trees could not be planted, and even fences could not be run” . . . Thus, a landowner “owns at least as much of the space above the ground as he can occupy or use in connection with the land,” and invasions of that airspace “are in the same category as invasions of the surface…However, it seems to be the consensus of the holdings of the courts in this country that the air space, at least near the ground, is almost as inviolable as the soil itself.”

This makes it sound to me that if the Hunter could prove he HOPPED sufficient distance from within the one corner over into the other.. that they'd REALLY have to have the other people involved in the court case be lil b!tches about it to decide to let a citation like that stick.

I'd imagine a change of clothes would also help a lot. "Huh? What are you talking about? as you can see I'm wearing THIS, not what you said." (Notice I did NOT say "it wasn't me")

A painted line on the roads is just that. Some paint on a road. It doesn't become a ticket until a cop sees you do it. Easy soltion is do the crossing at butt thirty in the AM.. and don't cross back until after nightfall again.

Just like on that Gabriel Iglesias comedy special where the Indian Taxi driver ran thru the Red Light. After he confronts him, the Indian Taxi Driver calmly states "Did you see any cars on the other road?"

the point of the laws and ordinances is to do just that... create "Order". In what way would this man corner crossing on foot, disrupt "Order"? A person would have to be a big flaming "Bruno" to write that citation or call the po-po about that.

 

[kwackkillncrew]

Also I am sure onx has some disclaimer that says these lines aren't official or the true boundary. I would put much faith in how some person decided to draw in the lines. Ya they are probably ok to 15 feet or so but not perfect. Also have to see how good of 3dcq your gps has. If you're going to jump a corner in the trees or thick forest your gps is probably good to 20 feet if you're lucky.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[Billy Goat]

From the BLM:

OUR MISSION
The Bureau of Land Management's mission is to sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.

That was after 1976. The Federal Land Policy and Management Act changed it to that.


Just saying that changes have taken place since it was first established. I think that makes it a little more difficult, plus putting up with neighbors.

The adjoining landowners get tired of the trespassing, even if it's only one out of 1k. Ever have a bad neighbor? It's not like they do chit everyday to piss you off, but at some point you get burnt out dealing with everything and you are tired of it. I think it's the same thing in most cases.

I think a lot of respect for land and property has gone down. Maybe by percentage it has actually gotten better, but I'd say number of violations have gone up.


You get someone who really starts to piss you off, you going to start to do anything to get rid of them. Much like the old guys yelling to get off their yard. They probably use to let the kids play til a few bad apples spoiled the bunch.

 

[Bighorner]

That was after 1976. The Federal Land Policy and Management Act changed it to that.


Just saying that changes have taken place since it was first established. I think that makes it a little more difficult, plus putting up with neighbors.

The adjoining landowners get tired of the trespassing, even if it's only one out of 1k. Ever have a bad neighbor? It's not like they do chit everyday to piss you off, but at some point you get burnt out dealing with everything and you are tired of it. I think it's the same thing in most cases.

I think a lot of respect for land and property has gone down. Maybe by percentage it has actually gotten better, but I'd say number of violations have gone up.


You get someone who really starts to piss you off, you going to start to do anything to get rid of them. Much like the old guys yelling to get off their yard. They probably use to let the kids play til a few bad apples spoiled the bunch.

I don't disagree with you. I have seen it from both sides of the fence. I think there are a lot of things that feed into this, not the least of which is people getting further and further away from agriculture and what takes place on a working farm or ranch, but that cuts both ways. There are alot of guys buying up agricultural property solely for recreation, which is their right to do so, but puts an added incentive to block access sometimes excess.

There are only a very few people who litter, but the ditches are full of it, yet we dont close down the roads. Trespassers are not going away. I very much respect property rights, but i also see public land as a birth right of Americans. A few bad apples should not de facto privatize public land. For every trespasser there is an over zealous land owner willing to put up a no trespassing sign on public ground or stop to harass someone regarding how they got on public ground when clear access exists. In the case of corner hopping I feel that the damage done to the air space vs the exclusion of the public to 1000s of acres of public ground is something to seriously be considered.

I can't be more sincere when I say it is a very complicated issue and I certainly do not mean any disrespect to anyone. I can sympathize with both sides of the argument. I appreciate the converstation.