Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination

[ENCORE]

I totally disagree. When it comes to ethically killing a game animal there has to a minimum standard of rules and there should be an acceptable level of reliability with the equipment you are using to take game. If CO decides there are enough reliability issues with BH209 then its in their right to disallow it.

Then that's one more stupid thing CO would do. There are zero reliability issues with BH209 if the directions are followed. I've shot it since it first hit the market over a decade ago.
If you're getting all the FTF and MF's, you're doing something wrong and/or have a PP ignition system.

 

[BRTreedogs]

How would a sabot help with ignition?
If you think blackhorn is unreliable wait unti you try a substitute.
Muzzleloaders are pretty unreliable in western configuration thats why they let them in certain seasons.
The game can't sustain the success of a more reliable system.
I guess I could see your frustration it you are coming from a Midwest run anything as long as it loads from the muzzle.
But being from from the most restricted Muzzleloader state most of us expect it not to go off.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

With all due respect to the Western States, I believe Pennsylvania's Flintlock season has the actual strictest muzzleloader regs.

 

[GCMan]

Shot Triple 777 FFFG yesterday 5 rounds. Now about 20 times total out of the same setup and same breech plug and same bullets and never had any issues. No misfires. I just can't explain that away and say it's ok. And I haven't experienced the cold temps variable yet which I have read about.

As a complete newbie this year with one muzzleloader rifle and with 100 shots under my belt, out of my setup Triple 777 FFFG is more forgiving. I'm going continue using it and shelf the BH209.

I like my analogy, BH209 is "high maintenance".

I would love to hear from someone shooting BH209 successfully from a CVA wolf and their entire setup.

 

[GCMan]

How would a sabot help with ignition?
If you think blackhorn is unreliable wait unti you try a substitute.
Muzzleloaders are pretty unreliable in western configuration thats why they let them in certain seasons.
The game can't sustain the success of a more reliable system.
I guess I could see your frustration it you are coming from a Midwest run anything as long as it loads from the muzzle.
But being from from the most restricted Muzzleloader state most of us expect it not to go off.

What I have read is you need to get the primer setup right - exact fit and hot ignition, that's why the suggested CCI mag primers or Federal 209A and the right breech plug but also a great compression from the muzzle end - with bullets, patches/plugs, and a really hard push from the ram rod. I didn't know all that starting out.

 

[GCMan]

With all due respect to the Western States, I believe Pennsylvania's Flintlock season has the actual strictest muzzleloader regs.

Just curious, what do they require up and beyond Colorado? I know the Colorado muzzleloader rules well.

 

[GCMan]

How would a sabot help with ignition?
If you think blackhorn is unreliable wait unti you try a substitute.
Muzzleloaders are pretty unreliable in western configuration thats why they let them in certain seasons.
The game can't sustain the success of a more reliable system.
I guess I could see your frustration it you are coming from a Midwest run anything as long as it loads from the muzzle.
But being from from the most restricted Muzzleloader state most of us expect it not to go off.

I generally like the Colorado rules for muzzleloader. I really like the open sights only restriction which for me means no shot over 75 yards.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Just curious, what do they require up and beyond Colorado? I know the Colorado muzzleloader rules well.

Flintlock and open sights only. The season starts 12/26 and runs for 3 Saturday's, so it's always cold and normally wet. A single snowflake can render the gun inoperable.

 

[GCMan]

Flintlock and open sights only. The season starts 12/26 and runs for 3 Saturday's, so it's always cold and normally wet. A single snowflake can render the gun inoperable.

That's really cool. I love bowhunting Whitetails and when Missouri allowed crossguns I almost gave it up.

 

[Rich M]

i agree with the user error and equipment incmpatability concrpts here.

Find a powder you like and have confidence in - soubds like you did. I never tried 209, like Triple 7 and never felt a need to switch.

Get it figured and good luck on your elk hunt.

I had a wolf and it was an okay gun.

We used to use and i still have 3 .58 cal harrington & Richardson inlines back in the 80s. 60 gr powder and a 500 gr+ prjectile.

Shooting an optima now. I’ll be sighting it for 200 yards for a short deer season down here in FL.

Oh, best thing i ever did… mix up 50% blue windshield wash and 50% rubbing alcohol to clean barrel. I clean every couple shots and this stuff is excellent. Takes the crud out.

 

[GCMan]

i agree with the user error and equipment incmpatability concrpts here.

Find a powder you like and have confidence in - soubds like you did. I never tried 209, like Triple 7 and never felt a need to switch.

Get it figured and good luck on your elk hunt.

I had a wolf and it was an okay gun.

We used to use and i still have 3 .58 cal harrington & Richardson inlines back in the 80s. 60 gr powder and a 500 gr+ prjectile.

Shooting an optima now. I’ll be sighting it for 200 yards for a short deer season down here in FL.

Oh, best thing i ever did… mix up 50% blue windshield wash and 50% rubbing alcohol to clean barrel. I clean every couple shots and this stuff is excellent. Takes the crud out.

thanks. I'll try that.

 

[0815]

All modern powders and especially black powder substitutes age. They tend to change over time and become inconsistent. Muzzleloading is intended as a primitive season and aside from PA and some western states, the Fish and Game Administrations totally sold out to the inline industry. It is mostly an additional high powered single shot rifle season. Especiallt in states, where the normal firearm seasons were or are restricted to slugguns or pistol cartridges.
It becomes like modern guns: only the right components work together. All the while, real BP does not change over time and goes boom with all ignitions.

 

[ENCORE]

All modern powders and especially black powder substitutes age. They tend to change over time and become inconsistent...........

Respectfully disagree.

Up until Hodgdon took over, Western was doing yearly testing of their first lot number of BH209. There was no degrading and it remained consistent. If its stored properly, it has an unlimited shelf life.

 

[0815]

Respectfully disagree.

Up until Hodgdon took over, Western was doing yearly testing of their first lot number of BH209. There was no degrading and it remained consistent. If its stored properly, it has an unlimited shelf life.

Respectfully disagree.

Up until Hodgdon took over, Western was doing yearly testing of their first lot number of BH209. There was no degrading and it remained consistent. If its stored properly, it has an unlimited shelf life.

Maybe unopened. Friend has one of these smokeless muzzleloaders and even though he bought all these expensive belts and sabots, could not get a group worth talking about.
Generally, if a traditional gun has ignition problems, it is user error. I hunt with real black and never have ignition issues. Last time gun stayed loaded all rifle bear season long. At the end of unsuccessful hunt, shot it out with no problems.
After cleaning and oiling, store percussion and inline guns barrel down. Don't use WD40, because it gums up. De-oil barrel with dry patch prior to loading.
If you uncap, put a patch or rubber piece between hammer and nipple. Lower hammer. Store loaded gun in unheated place.

 

[ENCORE]

Maybe unopened. Friend has one of these smokeless muzzleloaders and even though he bought all these expensive belts and sabots, could not get a group worth talking about.
Generally, if a traditional gun has ignition problems, it is user error. I hunt with real black and never have ignition issues. Last time gun stayed loaded all rifle bear season long. At the end of unsuccessful hunt, shot it out with no problems.
After cleaning and oiling, store percussion and inline guns barrel down. Don't use WD40, because it gums up. De-oil barrel with dry patch prior to loading.
If you uncap, put a patch or rubber piece between hammer and nipple. Lower hammer. Store loaded gun in unheated place.

The testing Western was doing was with the ORIGINAL lot number and bottle. Stored properly it has an unlimited shelf life.
I've shot it since it became available and up to 2,000 rounds per year. I've never had a MF or FTF. Ever. I've harvested an unimaginable number of whitetails using BH209.
My rifle is custom and is also smokeless rated. It shoots .3moa at 600yds. That's point three, not 3moa.

 

[GCMan]

It's like the archery world where the crossgun came into the picture and we had all the states adopting it for their archery seasons and Missouri held out for a few years and then succumbed to the industry.

The Tenpoint Nitro 505 supposedly shots at 505 ftp and it's cocked all the time and no need to draw back on the game animal. Is that bow like at all?

I personally feel the archery and muzzleloader were always supposed to an close range hunt. 50 yards with a bow and 100 yards with the muzzleloader.

No offense, but a muzzleloader with a high mag scope that shots groups sub 1 inch at 100 yard and has effective ranges of +400 yards. What's the difference between that and a high powered rifle?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I've had the same jug of BH209 for at least 5 years. I've never had a FTF after storing it inside/outside, hot/cold, etc... BH says its not temperature sensitive, and IME they are absolutely right on. I keep mine closed tightly inside a little plastic tackle box with all my other components.

@0815 I must've been doing something wrong years ago when I was using 777 pellets, loose powder, and goex. IME experience even mild temperature fluctuations (cold gun to slightly warmer environment) would cause the pellets to degrade and turn into goo. Those powders are also corrosive as hell. Dad had a Knight wolverine that he used loose pyrodex in, and after several years with "normal" maintenance (shooting at the end of the hunt and meticulous cleaning) it would have surface rust on both interior and exterior surfaces. Dad was an army vet and knew how to clean a weapon and that stuff was just not worth the headaches.

BH209 has not been corrosive on any of the rifles I've used, nitride, blued, or stainless.

 

[GCMan]

Respectfully disagree.

Up until Hodgdon took over, Western was doing yearly testing of their first lot number of BH209. There was no degrading and it remained consistent. If its stored properly, it has an unlimited shelf life.

Doesn't it seem a little strange that BH209 has characteristics so different that any other black powder or substitute. Shelf life, cleanup, ballistics, requirements for ignition, etc?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Don't it seem a little strange the BH209 has characteristics so different that any other black powder or substitute. Shelf life, cleanup, ballistics, requirements for ignition, etc.

Ummm, no, it doesn't seem strange. It's marketed as a substitute to the other black powder substitutes. Its intentionally designed to offer the same or better performance without the pain in the ass problems associated with the other stuff.

IME not hydrophilic like the black, pyrodex, 777, goex, white hots, etc... That means it doesnt draw moisture like them.

IME its not corrosive. So in addition, to not drawing moisture, even if you somehow get it wet it won't rust the crap out of your rifle, components, or turn into a brick.

Its a high performance powder when loaded properly. 90 grains (volumetric) and a 250 grain bullet groups 3" and sometimes better at 100 yards off my trigger stick. Shot Hornady SST last year for the first time (all I could find at Scheels at last minute) and they shot 1-2". I was also impressed with their performace on 2 bucks my daughters killed.

Regarding the primer discussion, I've used Winchester "blue box" shotgun primers, Remington 209, CCI, and never had a FTF. I'm not picky and just buy what's available. I shoot a CVA Accura with BH breech plug. I also used BH successfully in a Knight rolling block without the hammer (can't remember the model). Knight offered a loose powder "power stem" breech plug, burning the powder from the breech towards the action. It used the red discs and was a tremendously accurate rifle. It would shoot MOA at 100 yards.

 

[sabotloader]

IME its not corrosive. So in addition, to not drawing moisture, even if you somehow get it wet it won't rust the crap out of your rifle, components, or turn into a brick.

This is not correct, It can be corrosive, but certainly not as fast other subs. To qualify for being a black powder sub it does have to have some characteristics of real black powder. In that the powder still contains a small amount of BP ingredients, such as Potassium and Sulphur.

Over time it will/can cause corrosion. Read the information after POSTSCRIPT and you can verify that corrosion can occur on the BH web site.