Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

IME its not corrosive. So in addition, to not drawing moisture, even if you somehow get it wet it won't rust the crap out of your rifle, components, or turn into a brick.

This is not correct, It can be corrosive, but certainly not as fast other subs. To qualify for as to being a black powder sub it does have to have some characteristics of real black powder. In that the powder still contains a small amount of BP ingredients.

Over time it will/can cause corrosion. Read the information after POSTSCRIPT and you can verify that corrosion can occur on the BH web site.

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Don't disagree, and that's why I qualifed with IME. I have left my CVA loaded (by accident) for a few months and never had any issues with gooey powder that wouldn't shoot. In fact, I've simply pulled the breech plug and had the BH run out all over (again by accident) after many, many, weeks. I've gone 8 or 9 months without cleaning it after range sessions with the rifle out of its case in a damp basement. No rust. Granted the nitride helps out a lot I'm sure, but I had the same experience with my stainless knight (stainless will eventually rust too for the uninitiatied). In contrast, with 777 loose/pellets, I've seen rust in a matter of days and I would NEVER leave a 777 load in the barrel for more than a day or two unless in a cold and dry environment. Hell, I've seen rust on a cleaned rifle standing in a gun case that had been shot with 777. Just not worth the hassle to me.

 

[sabotloader]

Don't disagree, and that's why I qualifed with IME. I have left my CVA loaded (by accident) for a few months and never had any issues with gooey powder that wouldn't shoot. In fact, I've simply pulled the breech plug and had the BH run out all over (again by accident) after many, many, weeks. I've gone 8 or 9 months without cleaning it after range sessions with the rifle out of its case in a damp basement. No rust. Granted the nitride helps out a lot I'm sure, but I had the same experience with my stainless knight (stainless will eventually rust too for the uninitiatied). In contrast, with 777 loose/pellets, I've seen rust in a matter of days and I would NEVER leave a 777 load in the barrel for more than a day or two unless in a cold and dry environment. Hell, I've seen rust on a cleaned rifle standing in a gun case that had been shot with 777. Just not worth the hassle to me.

The Nitride finish is a huge barrier to corrosion by any BP or BP sub. That is one reason that many manufactures have offered it.

Regular blued steel bores are the most susceptible to corrosion, Stainless steal is less corrosive than blued and Nitride provides a huge barrier.

I use a lot of T7 powder here in Idaho and typically shoot a verify target in October, After shooting the verify target the rifle is load and typically remains that way until the end of December. The rifle has been shot and is loaded the entire time. I am using a Knight stainless rifle. While, I would not suggest this to others it works for me. The rifle is never cleaned until after hunting season. But I should add I never would not do this with a blued barrel and also if I suspect that the bore might have gotten damp that needs to be delt with.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

The Nitride finish is a huge barrier to corrosion by any BP or BP sub. That is one reason that many manufactures have offered it.

Regular blued steel bores are the most susceptible to corrosion, Stainless steal is less corrosive than blued and Nitride provides a huge barrier.

I use a lot of T7 powder here in Idaho and typically shoot a verify target in October, After shooting the verify target the rifle is load and typically remains that way until the end of December. The rifle has been shot and is loaded the entire time. I am using a Knight stainless rifle. While, I would not suggest this to others it works for me. The rifle is never cleaned until after hunting season. But I should add I never would not do this with a blued barrel and also if I suspect that the bore might have gotten damp that needs to be delt with.

I went with Nitride specifically to prevent rust. I wasn't sure it was worth the hype and extra $$$ when I bought it, but I'd say after several bad decisions on my part it has been thoroughly torture tested and proven itself. TBH, this rifle has been a game changer for me and muzzleloading simply due to the ease of cleaning and reduced risk of corrosion. I like BH for its additional resistance to corrosion, lower smoke, and better overall performance in my rifles.

 

[sabotloader]

I went with Nitride specifically to prevent rust. I wasn't sure it was worth the hype and extra $$$ when I bought it, but I'd say after several bad decisions on my part it has been thoroughly torture tested and proven itself. TBH, this rifle has been a game changer for me and muzzleloading simply due to the ease of cleaning and reduced risk of corrosion. I like BH for its additional resistance to corrosion, lower smoke, and better overall performance in my rifles.

Boy..... can not argue any of those points!!!! I would whole heartedly agree!

And just so you know... with this rifle I have the same thoughts and reflections that you have. And I am shooting a lot more T7 than BH (Black Gold) these days

 

[0815]

Flintlock and open sights only. The season starts 12/26 and runs for 3 Saturday's, so it's always cold and normally wet. A single snowflake can render the gun inoperable.

First: the non-ignition people in PA buy the crappiest flintlock rifles the market offers (traditions etc.) and they believe the market hypes of using black powder substitutes in spite of real BP in a flintlock works.
The naive consumer hunters expect then centerfire reliability because it is "modern".
Instead, they should study and learn their gun before hopping into the field.
The "modern" pellet and substitute flintlocks are garbage and much more unreliable than a real BP flintlock. Especially the interior geometry is pure idiocy. Removable breachplugs are not needed. In these designs they can produce hazards.
The machining required is much more complex and is of good quality, but a crappy geometry will yield no gain in function.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Boy..... can not argue any of those points!!!! I would whole heartedly agree!

And just so you know... with this rifle I have the same thoughts and reflections that you have. And I am shooting a lot more T7 than BH (Black Gold) these days

Is that a custom MK85? My brother in law has one with similar Leupold QD mounts/rings. Very nice set up and accurate rifle.

 

[sabotloader]

Is that a custom MK85? My brother in law has one with similar Leupold QD mounts/rings. Very nice set up and accurate rifle.

No it is Knight Ultra-Lite with a Nitride finish.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

First: the non-ignition people in PA buy the crappiest flintlock rifles the market offers (traditions etc.) and they believe the market hypes of using black powder substitutes in spite of real BP in a flintlock works.
The naive consumer hunters expect then centerfire reliability because it is "modern".
Instead, they should study and learn their gun before hopping into the field.
The "modern" pellet and substitute flintlocks are garbage and much more unreliable than a real BP flintlock. Especially the interior geometry is pure idiocy. Removable breachplugs are not needed. In these designs they can produce hazards.
The machining required is much more complex and is of good quality, but a crappy geometry will yield no gain in function.

how does any of this make PA's flintlock regs less-restrictive than any other state?

 

[ElDiablito]

I have to disagree with the premise of the article. It is ridiculous to suggest that Blackhorn be prohibited. Although it is true that BH209 requires a combination that allows pressure to build. A good sealing plug and a well sealing bullet (wad may be necessary) with a mag primer and you should have zero issues with BH209.

 

[0815]

how does any of this make PA's flintlock regs less-restrictive than any other state?

They are more restrictive than other states, some western states like CO are still fairly restrictive (iron sights/open sights/ammunition) and others are: everything pretty much goes as long as it is loaded from the muzzle. I like the PA approach and the CO regs as well. These seasons were intended as primitive weapon seasons. There is no reason to make these regs less restrictive. The only pushing interest is commercial and "we want to make it easier for the hunter". The same applies to archery seasons. Crossbows have no place in there and are not archery equipment. Ohio and other states are a bad example for that. Disabled people may be an exception for that, but there are plenty of single arm archers shooting a compound bow.

 

[sabotloader]

These seasons were intended as primitive weapon seasons.

That is not always the case. In Idaho where we really have some outdated rules, most of ML seasons are set for animal control! Here the fish and Game has to pay land owners for animal destruction on their private property. In the winter when the animals move to the farm lands the destruction of crops can get pretty extensive. Thus the F&G has a late season ML hunt in where you have to be within a mile of private farmland. Or getting permission from a private land owner to hunt on their property.

 

[MuleyFever]

Add me to the group that has been using BH209 and full bore projectiles for years now and has never had an issue.

 

[Balderdash]

I've burned over 10lbs of BH 209. I've used it in 6 different ML. Hunting partners used it in many more. Not one issue over many, many shots. Not even a slight hangfire. I use it with Sabots, Hornady FPB, and various other full bore projectiles. I used a lot of trip 7, regular BP, and various other BP substitutes through the years, too, and BH is better by almost any metric. I always use CCI 209m with it.

An ancillary note on CO: I've hunted CO ML seasons many times. Always use BH 209 and FPB bullets. Highly lethal combination on game. We have several elk, 2 moose, a bear, and numerous deer taken with this combination; most dropped like a sack of dirt, the others tipped over very close.

Banning BH due to isolated cases of user error is simply ridiculous. Use common sense, follow the directions and you'll be fine.

 

[GMB54-120]

All modern powders and especially black powder substitutes age. They tend to change over time and become inconsistent. Muzzleloading is intended as a primitive season and aside from PA and some western states, the Fish and Game Administrations totally sold out to the inline industry. It is mostly an additional high powered single shot rifle season. Especiallt in states, where the normal firearm seasons were or are restricted to slugguns or pistol cartridges.
It becomes like modern guns: only the right components work together. All the while, real BP does not change over time and goes boom with all ignitions.

Oh please, tell me when Missouri had a ML season that took place before firearms...THEY DIDNT. The archery lobby would not allow it to eat into their precious many month hunt. It was never intended for that purpose here. It was just another way to fill the EXACT same tag at a later date. We may have/had managed lottery type hunts that are/were primitive only but our ML season was never about being "primitive".

Most of you so called traditionalists just dont want to share the season with inline hunters. You think you are special for using a more primitive method. Every year i hunt the firearms season with a ML and you sure wont see me crying about it.

 

[GMB54-120]

These seasons were intended as primitive weapon seasons.

That is not always the case. In Idaho where we really have some outdated rules, most of ML seasons are set for animal control! Here the fish and Game has to pay land owners for animal destruction on their private property. In the winter when the animals move to the farm lands the destruction of crops can get pretty extensive. Thus the F&G has a late season ML hunt in where you have to be within a mile of private farmland. Or getting permission from a private land owner to hunt on their property.

Similar here, seasons/methods/ect are all about money and the harvest numbers they think are needed to control the population. Its easy to prove, just look at managed hunt quotas. The may go up or down each year with the tags they make available for the hunts.

Take Illinois for example. They have allowed smokeless for as long as i can remember. Its even mentioned in the regs. Sure dont sound even remotely primitive to me. Its also allowed in Missouri but Illinois went as far to state its legal in approved rifles.

https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/hunting/Documents/2022DeerFirearmMuzzleloaderInformationSheet.pdf

 

[0815]

Oh please, tell me when Missouri had a ML season that took place before firearms...THEY DIDNT. The archery lobby would not allow it to eat into their precious many month hunt. It was never intended for that purpose here. It was just another way to fill the EXACT same tag at a later date. We may have/had managed lottery type hunts that are/were primitive only but our ML season was never about being "primitive".

Most of you so called traditionalists just dont want to share the season with inline hunters. You think you are special for using a more primitive method. Every year i hunt the firearms season with a ML and you sure wont see me crying about it.

Longer seasons are justified through the lower success rate= hardly any population impact (archery) or lower participation rate (non-inline ML) = not much population management impact. Modern equipment changes these metrics how these seasons were established. No one forces you to shoot a ML during modern firearm season. Why do modern equipment pushers force their equipment into other seasons? Because they want to extend their seasons but don't want the reduced success rate or difficulty that comes with these extended length seasons.
That works out as long as there is a large population to hunt. If this is not the case, there will be season length reductions, access limitations through draws and other things.
So don't tell me the modern equipment will not influence season length or management population numbers.
A percussion and flint gun is good to about 100-140 yards with open sights and PRB. Your inline is sold with a scope and a 8" circle hit warranty at 200 yards out of the box. In fact, the modern ML is more capable than a slug gun which is a lot of times the allowed "deer hunting" firearm.

 

[GMB54-120]

Blah blah blah blah, i just gave two perfect examples of it was NEVER intended for it to be primitive. Its all about selling the most tags they can. So pat yourself on the back all you want. Sidelocks have been plenty lethal way past 200 yards for over 150 years. Fast twist 45s shooting huge conicals are nothing new so dont kid yourself.

My tag for firearms or our "ML" season is the exact same tag. I get 1 antlerless and 1 "any" no matter how i kill it. I have to apply for a managed hunt if i want another buck.

Tell me exactly how me shooting a 460gr conical at 1300-1400fps is any damn different than doing the same thing in a sidelock. Besides me having to play mountain man "dress up" to shoot it.

 

[SoloWilderness]

BH 209, CCI magnum primer, Thors, and an Arrowhead breech plug is about as good as it gets for a ML... and I started out with a Hawkin kit rifle, that couldn't shoot accurately past about 80-100 yards, but it's dropped every elk I've shot with it in their tracks. Nothing unethical about the occasional "pop.....fffftt" F^%U^! that accompanies an old school ML, certainly nothing unethical about a modern inline that's basically a single shot rifle. BH is awesome, just get the right primer and setup. GTG.

 

[Molon Labe]

Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination (READ THIS !!!)

This guy seems likes an expert on this subject and is speaking from my own experiences with BH209 so far. I agree with him. Colorado should either change the rules to allow sabot bullets and BH209. Or strictly prohibit the use of BH209 on game in Colorado (my opinion). PLEASE READ HIS ARTCLE BEFORE COMMENTING!!!

My experience with BH209 and several types of non sabot bullets has been a series of failures (~10% failures) which could have ended up with an injured elk if I hadn't tested enough on the shooting range. At this point I will use Triple 777 FFFG on my Colorado Elk hunt this fall.

This article does a great job summing up my experiences on the target range and my conclusion of BH209.

Sorry didn’t read the article. Not going to…shot roughly a thousand conical bullets pushed by BH209 and never a failure to fire.
No issues here through 4 different rifle system combinations.

Might want to check around a bit before asking for state wide regulations…that’s a bit extreme.

BUT…it is probably unethical for you to use your system since the failure rate is crazy high at 10%.

…I don’t mind the BH209 bashing though haha! Maybe it will talk a few people out of using it and help with supply!

 

[GCMan]

BH209 definitely very popular but finding the "correct" primers was impossible to locate. As of today, I have not located any and sort of gave up for now and using Triple 7 which has been going boom much more consistently out of my CVA wolf. That's what I will hunt with this season. Maybe I will revisit BH209 someday, now that I own two containers of it and it has good shelf life.