Arrow Penetration on Elk

[Superkodiak38]

To exemplify the negatives of a lack of penetration I should have added that several of the elk were not recovered until they were stiff...some were left overnight and found only by grid search. Who knows how many are lost because of the reasons above. Many penetration 'experts" preach a well tuned arrow is key to penetration, but that only adds a minimal amount of increase. Broadhead design can easily add 50 to 100% more penetration, possibly even more. 2 holes make for easier trailing.

I think you are underestimating the value of arrow flight. An arrow that is flying true vs an arrow that is not out of the same set up,all other things being the same will out penetrate the poorly tuned arrow. A poorly tuned arrow will have more impact on how well your broadhead does it's job than almost anything else, shot placement being the same, as it is the delivery platform for your broadhead.

 

[Mark]

I think this should be my last post on this so I will leave with something nonsensical. I have shot over 200 deer with a 243, therefore the best broadhead for elk is made by VPA.

Best.
Reply.
Ever.

You sir, deserve a round of applause if not a standing ovation!

My only question is, how many tons of antelope would that equate to?

 

[Beendare]

I've had the pleasure of seeing almost 60 elk die to an arrow...and i can tell you almost every arrow/BH combo works. It says a lot about the effectiveness of a bow and arrow IMHO that this occurs. Its a deadly weapon.

Debating fine points is a bit tricky. I base my opinions not on the successes....but on failures that I think would have been a kill with a different arrow/BH combo. Of course you never know.

A bull my buddy shot in U76 in Co still haunts my thoughts. I can see that bull like it was yesterday....

I called in a nice 300ish bull to my buddy....the bull came in very fast as we were only 100 yds when we setup. He shot the bull a little high in the chest broadside at about 22 yds. He only got maybe 10",12" of penetration and the bull took off like he was on fire with that shot. #1 he was using a 380 gr arrow with a Rocket steelhead mech head. 10 minutes later we saw the bull with the arrow sticking out still walking slowly 600yds across a meadow at almost 11,000 feet. We spent all day looking as my buddy said, "He's dead, we just have to find him" we never did.

2 things he had working against him;
1) those mech heads always get those animals moving
2) poor penetration with the arrow causing that animal to go further

I think my 500gr arrow with COC head would have FOR SURE got better penetration....probably resulting in a kill...but of course we will never know.

I've processed many animals of my buddies. I haven't seen anything to write home about for blood trails...a few good ones maybe. Then pulling those heads out of the animal about 1/2 were dull. Brand new heads to start but the process of shooting an elk dulled the blades.

Seeing the combo of poor penetration and dull blades is what I base my arrow/BH selection on.

On the other hand....the tapered heads I use- by design- puts less pressure on the blade edge...thus keeping it sharp through the animal. Then there is the added benefit of animals many times not knowing they were hit...the arrow went through them so slick..... and of course they penetrate better.

Just my experience....use what you want..they all work.

 

[Beendare]

Logic would tell me that a long tapered head (like a Woodsman) would penetrate further into a target than the Shuttle T.......but that hasn't been my experience at all.

Well that is a tiny little BH with very little blade surface...my problem with those is the crummy steel.

 

[5MilesBack]

Well that is a tiny little BH with very little blade surface....

True, but if you read Jeff's post that I responded to from the start, you'll see why I posted that.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"Second you tube is not a great place to get real world value on penetration, after all do you know the draw weight, arrow weight, broadhead, or tune?"

You summed up the subject of this thread...what, and how are they getting so little penetration? I'm pretty sure they are not shooting their heads into the dirt befo the hunting with them, so what are they doing? A couple were shooting Swaker or ulmer edge...got about 10 inches of penetration and cut one hole the size of a dime....grid search.

 

[Beendare]

True, but if you read Jeff's post that I responded to from the start, you'll see why I posted that.

Gotcha. Btw i agree with your premise. There is a lot more to a BH than just shape. I' ve seen those Woodsman heads go through a hog so fast he just stood there. ...and that was a DAS recurve so no speed bow. The long unsupported point of that woodsman makes it more susceptible to bending and I've actually seen a couple of them do just that tho they still killed the animals.

A very efficient BH can aid in penetration...but if you have poor arrow flight...its all for nothing. Priorities!

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"A very efficient BH can aid in penetration...but if you have poor arrow flight...its all for nothing. Priorities!"


The reality of the above statement is that all the evidence points to the contrary. The very premises for the development of mechanicals and the short fixed heads is for better flight out of speed bows, yet that combination often leads to less penetration.

Heads like the old Snuffers, Ziwikee, and Simmons are often difficult to get a perfect tune, yet they yield some of the deepest on game penetration. This suggests that design trumps arrow flight, and IMO that has been the case. Another opinion might be that in order to get good flight out of the above mentioned heads that one has to shoot a heavier arrow and that is the reason they penetrate better...I would agree with that too.

A good design pushed by a heavy arrow is hard to beat. My guess is the lack of penetration displayed in the YouTube videos was because of shooting too light arrows tipped with poor penetrating heads, and not because of poor flight.

 

[Superkodiak38]

Let's see; Poor arrow flight VS true arrow flight, poor arrow flight has the arrow impacting tail left or tail right, nock low or nock high or not spinning true. With true flight the arrow is spinning true and impacts the target dead on in straight flight. The amount of energy the arrow is impacting with is directed in a straight line through the broadhead and imparted directly into the target in the most effective delivery of energy possible, in poor arrow flight the broadhead is not impacting the target directly, either in a wobble or at an angle that robs the broadhead of efficiancy causing a loss of energy to overcome it's poor strike at impact. Rifle barrells are rifled to impart spin to stablilize a bullet in flight, similar to helical fletching on an arrow. Once the bullet expends enough energy without impacting a target it's flight begins to degrade and it begins to wobble and wind shear eventually leads to it tumbling. Another example is a football, you can't throw a wobbely pass as far as a spiral. Arrow flight is paramount to penetration.

 

[elkyinzer]

This isn't voodoo stuff...momentum drives penetration and frictions slows it down.

Momentum is created by a heavier arrow and more velocity. A properly tuned and balanced arrow doesn't "create" more momentum, it simply harnesses as close as possible to 100% of the arrow's theoretical momentum instead of losing energy on an axis perpendicular to your arrow's flight. To visualize that theory just find a dart board and throw some darts with proper flight, then throw a few wobbly ones. The straight ones always penetrate much better.

A field point will create less friction than a 2" cutting blade (that will likely look like a mangled paper clip creating more friction upon its first contact with bone), and thus penetrate farther. But a field point obviously doesn't accomplish our cutting objective either so where is our happy medium? To me it's a reasonably sized, tough, cut on contact head and there are quite a few out there to choose from so this doesn't have to become a brand endorsement.

In summary, if your objective is to refute the effectiveness of 2" mechanical heads, I wholeheartedly agree. But I think that the momentum of the arrow is a much bigger driver of penetration.

 

[Jeff Martin]

Food for thought: many people think a 425 grain arrow is light for elk. Many would tell you 500 grain arrow is a heavy arrow and very good for elk. That is about 10 nocks. Hold 10 nocks in your hand.....you can really see how that makes huge difference in the lethality of an elk arrow......lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rileybassman]

Perhaps it's been stated and I missed it - I don't shoot mechanical heads, but have always assumed that a fair amount of energy at impact was lost to expanding the heads - therefore not all of the impact energy was dedicated to penetration... or a higher amount of drag pulling the blades out - whatever the design may be. Makes sense in my mind

I shoot the shuttle T's as well... admit no elk with them yet (hope to change that this year) but the deer have always been complete pass throughs - in one instance, I lunged one and it was getting dark so I started trailing 15 mins after I shot - complete pass through, arrow 6-8 inches in the dirt on far side... I found the deer about 75 yards away and she was not quit expired, but not able to run off - I shot a finishing shot in the head, and the arrow completely penetrated the skull. Would not have tried that last shot with a mechanical.

 

[Beendare]

"A very efficient BH can aid in penetration...but if you have poor arrow flight...its all for nothing. Priorities!" [my comment]
The reality of the above statement is that all the evidence points to the contrary. .

[ then your comment]

When shooting at an animal.....have you ever hit a branch or twig with the arrow still hitting the animal? Unfortunately, I have...and it won't matter much which BH you have on there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a wobbly arrow severely hurts your penetration...no matter the BH. The tail end vectors in a different direction...

The best physical explanation I've seen on vector force and arrows is long...but you will get the gist if you;

Visualize your arrow as a straight line of ball bearings......

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

Footballs, ball bearings, and bullets...lots of comparisons that have nothing to do with how arrows are projected. Couple this with failure to carry thoughts throughout the process leads to false conclusions.

Arrows, unlike footballs and bullets receive no rotational force a launch, so they are the most unstable at launch but quickly stabilise as fletching catches air and begins to rotate. So unlike wobbling footballs that rotate slower and slower and get more unstable during flight, arrows get more stable. The duration for instability of an arrow is relatively short so while the loss of momentum occurs it is minimal.

Even if the arrow is slightly skewed when it makes contact with hair and hide, the cut on contact head and the keen concave head with penetrate with little resistance, allowing the arrow to straighten as it passes through the animal, thus realigning the arrow with the head and pushing all the way through.

A shorter head with lesser penetration qualities will resist initial penetration and if the arrow is slightly skewed at contact it will become more out of line with the head resulting in a magnified loss of penetration.

So thanks, everything that has been thrown at this to debunk the importance of a good penetrating head has actually reinforced why they outperform the shorter, poorer designed heads.

Lost in all this is the importance of a super sharp head, and I have never opened a pack that I couldn't make sharper.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are the pigeon is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

 

[Grunt-N-Gobble]

Dont feed the beast that is TBM. He believes that he is Gods gift to bowhunting and more specifically turkey hunting. Hes well known for getting booted off other hunting forums. You fellas are in for an experience!!!

Has he told you guys about the elk he shot and lost?

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

There are 3 levels of intelligent conversation, talking about ideas is the highest, followed by events followed by talking about people.

There is nothing wrong with a respectful conversation that promotes deep thought. So many just get into a rut and never challenge themselves... I see it in the workplace every day.

 

[Superkodiak38]

TBM, I guess all of us of opinions other than yours, will have just respectfully agree to disagree. I would love to see some story's about your hunts and what you used to kill your two elk, how you came upon them. I came to Rokslide as a guy wanting to learn about elk and pick up some tips and information on how and where and what gear to use for camp and conditions I might encounter. I would really enjoy hearing about your sucess as a first and second timer as I am planning my first elk hunt for Septembe of '18. If you have already posted those elsewhere can you link me to them ? Thank you

 

[Jon Boy]

Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are the pigeon is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

We have a winner.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"TBM Pic Weak Elk Hunt Recap" on Bowsite is the story on my first. You can Google it or use bowsite search.