Arrow failure or bad setup vs Elk

[gardo]

This is my first post so I want to say thank you for helping me somewhat solve this mystery.

I took a shot at a nice bull this past week. He was 61 yards and slightly quartering away. I hit 2" behind the crease and two inches above center. My aim point was opposite leg and I feel I hit my mark. When the arrow hit, it made a loud crack. The bull when 40 yards and turned towards me with blood pouring down his leg and out of his mouth. We thought he was done but he slowly walked off after 15 minutes of trying to keep him calm with a cow call. I was able to sneak down the ridge and get another arrow in him. Again he was quartering away at 91 yards. Normally I would not take this shot but felt it was needed to put him down. This shot was 6" back from the crease and 3" high of center. I hit him opposite side and the arrow buried all but about 9" into him. I felt great about the placement and he was bleeding badly. He walked over a ridge and we backed out to let him die. We came back 4 hours later. We tracked blood for probably 1500 yards and never found him. Spent the next 3 days and hiked around 20 miles with no luck. By far, one of the worst feelings I've ever had.

I'm shooting a Hoyt Ventum 33. DL is 31". Arrow is 29.25" Black eagle rampage 250 spine with half outs and 30gn front weight, three fletched blazer and nocturnals with an Iron Will S125. Arrow weight is 563gn and pushing 278 fps.

We went back to find my first arrow and discovered it was broken 5" from the end. I assume I got enough penetration to hit one lung since he was bleeding from his mouth?

All that said, I have two questions:
1) Considering where I hit the first time, is it possible to hit the shoulder? It's hard for me to imagine the shoulder being that far back but I wouldn't think a rib would snap my arrow.
2) Considering my KE, do you think my arrow wasn't capable of a solid hit which caused it to snap?

I've never had issues with this arrow/ setup on deer but elk aren't deer. I feel the energy may have been more than the half out could handle but I'm not sure? Not sure if I should stay with this arrow and change to the iron will HIT and collar, start over with a different arrow or just accept this scenario as a fluke and move on.

Again, sorry for the long post but lossing this animal is killing me and I want to get all of the answers I can to hopefully avoid this in the future. Thanks for the help!

 

[Billy Goat]

That's a lot to take in. I can't see anything wrong with your setup, my guess is you weren't hitting where you thought you were. The rampages are a little more brittle than some of the comparable arrows, but I have shoot them in 300's without issue. I have heard loud impacts when shooting elk, two that stand out I thought I must have missed and hit a tree behind them, only to not find my arrow in a tree but buried into the dirt covered in blood.

Something was definitely going on for your lack of penetration, that setup should be shooting thru two elk more than likely.

The first shot if the arrow broke off 5" from the broadhead end likely hit the ball joint or very close of the on-side shoulder.
Don't know about the second, 9" from a 29" shaft would still be 20" and unless hard quartering still enough to catch both lungs, tho if it hit in the lung cavity it should have just blown right thru.


I'm wondering if the bleeding from the mouth was actually where he reached back and contacted the area he had been hit, putting blood all over his muzzle. I can't see a scenario where he could have blood passing out thru his esophagus that he would travel near the distance you were able to track him.

 

[dreamingWest]

"I'm shooting a Hoyt Ventum 33. DL is 31". Arrow is 29.25" Black eagle rampage 250 spine with half outs and 30gn front weight, three fletched blazer and nocturnals with an Iron Will S125. Arrow weight is 563gn and pushing 278 fps."

That sounds like one helluva elk set-up. I can't imagine shooting 563 at 278.
I'm interested in the responses.

 

[Flatgo]

I do not think you can fault the arrow or set up. From what you described, I would guess your first shot was in the shoulder, and your second shot was in the spine. but hard to say without being there. 5" and 9" of penetration at best would only be on lung, and with that set up anywhere it the lung cavity it would have blown through.

i will add one thing people typically do not talk about with quartering shots. in my experience any quartering shot the arrow will typically have a steeper quarter on it than the animal was. i think this has something to do with the center of mass of the arrow being approximatly 10" behind the broadhead. the bull i shot this year was slightly quartered too me, i hit him 3 inches back from the crease, and at his quarter it should have exited at last rib. my arrow exited just in front of the offside hind quarter.

 

[Geewhiz]

If you truly hit him where you said you did I am going to say that there is no way he would have gone 1500 yards plus.

However, I once double lunged a bull with a textbook perfect shot and he want 1.24 miles and we found him 2 days later. We did an autopsy and indeed it was a perfect shot.

I have no explanations.

 

[TheTone]

If you truly hit him where you said you did I am going to say that there is no way he would have gone 1500 yards plus.

However, I once double lunged a bull with a textbook perfect shot and he want 1.24 miles and we found him 2 days later. We did an autopsy and indeed it was a perfect shot.

I have no explanations.

I’ll agree with this.

my advice, take closer shots

 

[Coveyleader]

2 inches behind the shoulder on a quartering shot sounds like a shot that hit too far forward.

 

[Geewhiz]

2 inches behind the shoulder on a quartering shot sounds like a shot that hit too far forward.

Sounds about perfect to me.

 

[gardo]

That's a lot to take in. I can't see anything wrong with your setup, my guess is you weren't hitting where you thought you were. The rampages are a little more brittle than some of the comparable arrows, but I have shoot them in 300's without issue. I have heard loud impacts when shooting elk, two that stand out I thought I must have missed and hit a tree behind them, only to not find my arrow in a tree but buried into the dirt covered in blood.

Something was definitely going on for your lack of penetration, that setup should be shooting thru two elk more than likely.

The first shot if the arrow broke off 5" from the broadhead end likely hit the ball joint or very close of the on-side shoulder.
Don't know about the second, 9" from a 29" shaft would still be 20" and unless hard quartering still enough to catch both lungs, tho if it hit in the lung cavity it should have just blown right thru.


I'm wondering if the bleeding from the mouth was actually where he reached back and contacted the area he had been hit, putting blood all over his muzzle. I can't see a scenario where he could have blood passing out thru his esophagus that he would travel near the distance you were able to track him.

We went back to the spot he stood after I hit him for about a minute. There was a good amount of blood in a pile but 3-4’ in front of the pile, it looked someone took a spray bottle of blood. Here’s a pic. The main blood is in the bottom of the pic but zoom in above it and you should see it.

 

[Billy Goat]

Sounds about perfect to me.

On a true quartering (45 degrees) I'd say it's too far forward.


On a "slightly" quartering I think it would be just about right.

Generally aiming up the opposite leg is the way to go, like the op said he did.


So long as you are behind the joint is what's important.

 

[gardo]

"I'm shooting a Hoyt Ventum 33. DL is 31". Arrow is 29.25" Black eagle rampage 250 spine with half outs and 30gn front weight, three fletched blazer and nocturnals with an Iron Will S125. Arrow weight is 563gn and pushing 278 fps."

That sounds like one helluva elk set-up. I can't imagine shooting 563 at 278.
I'm interested in the

I do not think you can fault the arrow or set up. From what you described, I would guess your first shot was in the shoulder, and your second shot was in the spine. but hard to say without being there. 5" and 9" of penetration at best would only be on lung, and with that set up anywhere it the lung cavity it would have blown through.

i will add one thing people typically do not talk about with quartering shots. in my experience any quartering shot the arrow will typically have a steeper quarter on it than the animal was. i think this has something to do with the center of mass of the arrow being approximatly 10" behind the broadhead. the bull i shot this year was slightly quartered too me, i hit him 3 inches back from the crease, and at his quarter it should have exited at last rib. my arrow exited just in front of the offside hind quarter.

5” of penetration on the first shot and all but 9” on the second. The second went deep and bled more than the first.

 

[Billy Goat]

We went back to the spot he stood after I hit him for about a minute. There was a good amount of blood in a pile but 3-4’ in front of the pile, it looked someone took a spray bottle of blood. Here’s a pic. The main blood is in the bottom of the pic but zoom in above it and you should see it.

I think I see what you are referring to, but I don't know that it's indicative of it coming out of his mouth, not saying it isn't either, but especially on the first shot, if you only got 5" of penetration I don't think that would have been a lung hit, best case is arteries around the heart, likely didn't get there.

It could be his on-side leg was back a little at impact. That could have made what looked like an ideal hit, not.

 

[gardo]

If you truly hit him where you said you did I am going to say that there is no way he would have gone 1500 yards plus.

However, I once double lunged a bull with a textbook perfect shot and he want 1.24 miles and we found him 2 days later. We did an autopsy and indeed it was a perfect shot.

I have no explanations.

I agree. I have no reason to lie. The first hit something. I thought I was far enough back. Maybe not. The second I would have bet the house was spot on. No clue

 

[Beendare]

That cr

 

[gardo]

So regarding too far forward on the first shot, does the scapula go that far back or is there another bone I’m missing? All of the elk skeleton pictures I’ve looked up have the scapula forward of where I hit. Can it move further back?

 

[Bobrobheimer]

That’s rough!

Are you guys familiar with Ed Ashby and the arrow set ups he is recommending. Think he’s right that one of his set ups would have gone through the shoulder in a scenario like this (if that’s in fact what happened).

 

[Billy Goat]

So regarding too far forward on the first shot, does the scapula go that far back or is there another bone I’m missing? All of the elk skeleton pictures I’ve looked up have the scapula forward of where I hit. Can it move further back?

It's the humorous that you need to be concerned with.



You notice in the picture how the offside leg is back? If it was the inside leg that is back that joint would be a little further back and higher.


The scapula isn't covering vitals, especially at a quartering away angle. It's covering vertebrae.

 

[gardo]

It's the humorous that you need to be concerned with.

View attachment 333298

You notice in the picture how the offside leg is back? If it was the inside leg that is back that joint would be a little further back and higher.


The scapula isn't covering vitals, especially at a quartering away angle. It's covering vertebrae.

It's the humorous that you need to be concerned with.

View attachment 333298

You notice in the picture how the offside leg is back? If it was the inside leg that is back that joint would be a little further back and higher.


The scapula isn't covering vitals, especially at a quartering away angle. It's covering vertebrae.

Do you think this joint can get to centerline of body? I’ll throw this out there, he showed no sign of an injured leg or shoulder. No limp. He walked slow but never favored the other leg.

 

[gardo]

That’s rough!

Are you guys familiar with Ed Ashby and the arrow set ups he is recommending. Think he’s right that one of his set ups would have gone through the shoulder in a scenario like this (if that’s in fact what happened).

I am. I’ve listened to a lot of his stuff which prompted me to want an arrow has heavy as I could get and as close to 280 but under 280. That said, I’m wondering if the half out couldn’t hold up to bone hit with that amount of energy?

 

[Billy Goat]

Do you think this joint can get to centerline of body? I’ll throw this out there, he showed no sign of an injured leg or shoulder. No limp. He walked slow but never favored the other leg.

No, I don't think it would get upto centerline, lower 1/3.


Thing is it's obvious your first shot hit something very hard. You have an incredible amount of energy and what should be a pretty efficient setup. Even if your setup is poorly tuned and you bleed off an immense amount of speed with the arrow correcting, hell, you still way past stickbow stuff. I mean take 100 fps off, now you are what my black widow does with a similar weight arrow. It ain't like a rib is stopping it.


I really don't know exactly what happened, but given the 5" of penetration, it hit something very hard, the closest thing would be the joint.