Arrow failure or bad setup vs Elk

[gardo]

My experience on quartering shots, not matter how slight we think it may be, quartering means you’re always better hitting back, way back is better than slightly forward.

anyways, we are all guessing. It sucks!

I agree and had it to do over, I would go further back. Still don’t understand what I hit and to your point, I’ll probably never know.

 

[Read1t48]

Gardo -
I’m envious of your set up!
That speed with your weight is Impossible for me to achieve because of my shorter draw length. I commend you for the write up and the desire to improve and learn. What a great forum to get so many replies. On quartering shots, I use the opposite leg as an aiming point. Like mentioned, I try to hit further back than too far forward. I’m surprised every year when I come across pictures of elk shot way back from the crease that are still recovered. But shots further back, away from the shoulder and bone, often result in two holes, more blood, etc. I would not change your arrow set up.

 

[big44a4]

I remember seeing the knock end, specifically my fletching, take a hard down and right after impact. At that point, I had no idea how much penetration I got and just saw blood coming from where I hit but the arrow broke at impact.

I’d start with different broadheads. What junk. LOL. Setup sounds solid.

My guess is you hit lower than you thought. Had a buddy think he double lunged a cow and it ended up being a brisket shot. Meat on arrow, good blood for a couple hundred yards then nothing. Multiple spots just like your picture. With the sound I’d say you hit knuckle but as others said it’s just a guessing game. More often then not people miss low on elk over high.

You can try a collar but very unlikely to replicate your circumstances again. I haven’t had issues with durability on half outs with same arrow, but now I use focos or ethics on X impact 200/250s. I’d shoot rampages again.

 

[Page Master]

I feel I would've had to of been way far forward to hit the scapula wouldn’t I? Can the scapula get back to the crease?

Man, without the critter you just can't be sure. Evidence suggests you snuck a little more forward than you thought. Last year I swore I had 2 perfect shots on deer and 1 was a high double lung and she went 40 yards and I never found the other after wasting 1.5 days tracking pin pricks of blood in snow and sand. Your mind will betray you every chance it gets. Especially when you are amped up. I remember having almost the same shot on a muley buck but I got zero penetration and he wasn't found.

Good on you for doing the tracking and work, but usually the cards aren't in our favor.

 

[Billy Goat]

I remember seeing the knock end, specifically my fletching, take a hard down and right after impact. At that point, I had no idea how much penetration I got and just saw blood coming from where I hit but the arrow broke at impact.

I really doubt the shaft broke at impact. If you saw your nock go hard down and right after impact that's likely a reaction from the broadhead burrowing into something. The forces it would take to snap an arrow 5" from the point would be insane and you wouldn't see it, even with a light up nock, it would have also pitched the nock out the end of your arrow, likely making you think your arrow went flying somewhere into oblivion.

 

[cuttiebrownbow]

Just spit balling here - Could the arrow have penetrated the scapula and then as the shaft whips around as it starts to pass through broken off? That would maybe explain the broken arrow and possible lung hit.

That is my thought. I had that on a whitetail and the broken shaft was laying at point of impact. My broadhead took a 90 degree turn and ended up in the spine somehow. All I heard was a crack and the deer was down but still alive.

 

[S.Clancy]

Just for your reference. I shoot a similar setup to you as far as energy, just slightly less. On a hard quartering shot at 50 yds last year on a bull I got 25" of penetration with an expandable head. This year, hit two ribs, same distance same head, ~20" of penetration. There is no way you didnt hit something very hard on your first shot.

Also, it's not difficult to see what you want to see as far as where your arrow hit. The bull this year I hit slightly back (liver and lung), but just based on the way he was standing I swore up and down I hit perfect.

Finally, I shot a bull @14 yds once, quartered away, tight to the shoulder. My broadhead deflected forward off a rib and out his brisket. Blood went only 30 yds and that bull pushed his cows over a 10,000ft ridge without a care in the world. Weird shit happens in archery. Sometimes it rips your heart out and then drags it through the dirt.

 

[5MilesBack]

Just for your reference. I shoot a similar setup to you as far as energy, just slightly less. On a hard quartering shot at 50 yds last year on a bull I got 25" of penetration with an expandable head. This year, hit two ribs, same distance same head, ~20" of penetration. There is no way you didnt hit something very hard on your first shot.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I've buried 1.5" 3-blade over the top mechanicals all the way to the offside shoulder on quartering away shots, even hard quartering away. Last year on my moose my OTT mechanical buried to the fletching on my 30" arrows hitting ribs on both sides. An Ulmer Edge even blew through the humerus "on exit" on a quartering away shot on a big bull and still flew another 20 yards after that. He definitely hit heavy bone. I could even see an arrow getting snapped off between the shoulder blade and a rib if the bull moved his leg as soon as the arrow entered.

 

[hibernation]

My experience is that we are often pretty poor judges of shot impact in the moment, I've walked up on so many "perfect broadside shots" (mine and others) that turned out to be quartering, or high, or low, or any number of things. Especially at 60yds.

Have you considered that the first shot was high and hit spine? If you already thought it was a little above center, it doesn't take much more to impact the base of the spine. That would explain the crack you heard and breaking off so short, those hits can bleed pretty well initially but taper off quickly.

 

[bsnedeker]

My experience is that we are often pretty poor judges of shot impact in the moment, I've walked up on so many "perfect broadside shots" (mine and others) that turned out to be quartering, or high, or low, or any number of things. Especially at 60yds.

Have you considered that the first shot was high and hit spine? If you already thought it was a little above center, it doesn't take much more to impact the base of the spine. That would explain the crack you heard and breaking off so short, those hits can bleed pretty well initially but taper off quickly.

I agree with this and others that have said the same. I shot my bull at 75 yards this year. I have a VERY clear picture in my mind of that arrow flying through the air, I heard a super loud CRACK when it hit, and I would have told you that arrow hit right behind the shoulder, was a bit below centerline on the elk.

When I got up to the elk (he died quickly) my shot was VERY high and further back than I thought. I wasn't even close as to where I thought I hit. Turns out I had my rangefinder setup without angle compensation and was shooting sharply downhill so I shot him at 75, but he probably was closer to 70.

 

[Bighorner]

The only time I have every had an arrow break in two has been when an elk fell on an arrow or when the portion of an arrow outside the elk hit a tree close very close to the elks body as it was running. In fact almost every arrow that wasn't a complete pass through ended up broken. I have never even heard of a break like that on a target. It takes a ton of force from the side not behind to create that type of break.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

1. I don't think your setup is the problem
2. I'll bet you didn't hit exactly where you thought, (i.e. hit some kind of heavy bone) but that's nothing to be ashamed of, it's normal.
3. Flukey things happen in archery. You did a great job getting a second arrow in him, especially at that range! i'd probably chalk this one up to "shit happens" man.

 

[nphunter]

IMO you most likely hit the shoulder and got 5" of penetration into a single lung, when the bull took the first step the shoulder bone sliding across the ribs under it would break off the arrow where they meet. I've made the same shot at 20 yards on a mature bull and ended up not recovering him. I held tight to the shoulder and the bull ran about 50 yards after the shot and stopped and started coughing, I thought he was dead so I backed out and came back with my wife and kids a couple of hours later to recover him. There was a small golf ball-sized chuck of lung blood where he stood and he just walked out of there. Looked for the rest of the season for that bull and even took hounds to try to turn his carcass up a few days later. I'm pretty sure I have a picture of a trail cam of him a couple of years later.

Who knows about your follow-up shot, if it was high you may have just poked it through his back strap like a shishkabob.

As far as your setup, I personally don't like outserts but feel like they were not the issue at all, I'm shooting a 500gr arrow at 278fps with a mechanical and was able to push one through 4 ribs of a bull at 60 yards this fall.

Honestly I feel like this shot was more forward than I’m comfortable with. He lived long enough to run 115 yards and tip over next to my hunting partner.

 

[gardo]

My experience is that we are often pretty poor judges of shot impact in the moment, I've walked up on so many "perfect broadside shots" (mine and others) that turned out to be quartering, or high, or low, or any number of things. Especially at 60yds.

Have you considered that the first shot was high and hit spine? If you already thought it was a little above center, it doesn't take much more to impact the base of the spine. That would explain the crack you heard and breaking off so short, those hits can bleed pretty well initially but taper off quickly.

I agree on the poor judge part especially in the heat of the monument. That said, he stood there for probably 5 minutes bleeding and we closely observed where the blood was coming from. Overall, it’s a mystery I’ll never figure out.

 

[gardo]

IMO you most likely hit the shoulder and got 5" of penetration into a single lung, when the bull took the first step the shoulder bone sliding across the ribs under it would break off the arrow where they meet. I've made the same shot at 20 yards on a mature bull and ended up not recovering him. I held tight to the shoulder and the bull ran about 50 yards after the shot and stopped and started coughing, I thought he was dead so I backed out and came back with my wife and kids a couple of hours later to recover him. There was a small golf ball-sized chuck of lung blood where he stood and he just walked out of there. Looked for the rest of the season for that bull and even took hounds to try to turn his carcass up a few days later. I'm pretty sure I have a picture of a trail cam of him a couple of years later.

Who knows about your follow-up shot, if it was high you may have just poked it through his back strap like a shishkabob.

As far as your setup, I personally don't like outserts but feel like they were not the issue at all, I'm shooting a 500gr arrow at 278fps with a mechanical and was able to push one through 4 ribs of a bull at 60 yards this fall.

Honestly I feel like this shot was more forward than I’m comfortable with. He lived long enough to run 115 yards and tip over next to my hunting partner.
View attachment 333599

Nice bull. This is the location I feel I hit and blood was coming from. Can I hit shoulder with that impact point?

 

[Geewhiz]

Nice bull. This is the location I feel I hit and blood was coming from. Can I hit shoulder with that impact point?

Possibly the back of the scapula depending on his position

 

[sndmn11]

I think a lot of times we see the fletching and associate it with where the tip is. On a 3d target that seems obvious because from the shooter's perspective that should be mostly true. What I think happens A LOT on game is that we have trained our minds to look for the fletching, but the animal has moved after impact and the shooter's perception of the shot placement is distorted.
My thought here is that with quartering away and little penetration, a shot well forward into the scapula leaves the fletching hanging out around "a few inches behind the crease" depending on the viewer's angle. Anything quartering away should have the aiming point being on the second to third last rib. Those ribs don't move around, but that "crease" sure does.

 

[gardo]

I think a lot of times we see the fletching and associate it with where the tip is. On a 3d target that seems obvious because from the shooter's perspective that should be mostly true. What I think happens A LOT on game is that we have trained our minds to look for the fletching, but the animal has moved after impact and the shooter's perception of the shot placement is distorted.
My thought here is that with quartering away and little penetration, a shot well forward into the scapula leaves the fletching hanging out around "a few inches behind the crease" depending on the viewer's angle. Anything quartering away should have the aiming point being on the second to third last rib. Those ribs don't move around, but that "crease" sure does.

Good point

 

[Buffalo0922]

That is just plain bad luck and shows how tough these animals are. Seems like you did everything right.

 

[Beendare]

Del