Are City Firefighters Overpaid?

[BRTreedogs]

Fixed my original post so you can understand it was not literal, just a view the public holds..

Well just keep in mind, the public sucks. That's facts you can take to the bank.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Well just keep in mind, the public sucks. That's facts you can take to the bank.

Yup.

We could save puppies from drowning and some asshole would complain that we’re wasting public resources.

 

[tony]

I never understood the grocery shopping while on call or taking the biggest engine to the grocery store.

You'd really loose your shit at this one. I had crews "allegedly" shopping for cars, going to the hardware store for things, getting ice cream. Might have happened, could have happened, not for sure.

I did 26 years on the job, retired. We were fire based with some EMS 1st responder. Meaning we went to fires, car wrecks, etc. We assisted the county EMS on certain calls or when they called for help, needing a driver, lift assists, extra set of hands.

I worked for the county EMS and when I started there in 1991 I made $8.87 an hour for 24 hours. I left to play fireman about a year later and I think made $12.00 an hour for 24 hours. I remember the EMS as EMS ran triple the calls the FD did and still does. (I was a paramedic) I knew what I was getting into going fire. Nobody wants to work in the "welfare taxi".
You want to pissed about a waste of your tax dollars? Tackle the abuse of the welfare system.
Everybody wants to fight fire, and we fought a lot of fire in my little city. My man Buckeye works for one of the larger FDs in the country and gets his dick knocked in the dirt daily running EMS.
He needs to be paid more for the work amount he does.

I went to nursing school while working fulltime as one of the benefits of the job is trading shifts. I knew I wanted to make more to make up for my low income and not take a chance at dyeing to do it.

Which vehicle to take on a call? Some depts "combo" meaning there are 4-6 members in the station. They take what ever vehicle is needed. The fire truck or the ambulance. The idea of a small EMS rig such as a pick up is a good one. Cheap, fits everywhere, carries what you need. 4 guys are on a squad call and hand of to the ambo crew, a fire comes in or they drive by a car wreck. Well, they left the truck they need back at the station. In this business, its hard to justify cost/expense to the publics "why do you drive the fire engine for a broken finger or chest pain call". These rigs are $500,000 and up. And running first response puts the miles and hours on them quick.

I guess the same could be said, about taking the truck to get the meal. Lets be honest here, I started work at 0700AM. I am not going to the store before work. The ones complaining are the same ones wanting a fire truck at bobbie sues birthday party. (not directed at you).

Private EMS pays peanuts because they can. "EMS" attracts a population that believes they will get to save lives. So they get into an EMT class, some maybe a Paramedic class. And then they end up working for bubbas ambulance service doing transports all day. And they don't quit because they can kill themselves on fast food and overtime while still waiting for that life to save. EMS has and will always be the asshole of public service. I once went to a fast food restaurant when I was working EMS. Gal at the counter asked a co worker, they get a discount right? "No that's just for the police, and the fire dept. Now I didn't look for nor, expect anything. But we never went back and we told the other crews as well. See private or 3rd service EMS lives on fast food, as they may never get a real meal during the shift.

Use to be, Firefighters were cool and everybody loves them. The police, lets be nice and give them a discount or free shit and they will maybe left us off a ticket one day. EMS, who? what is EMS, OH! the ambulance drives. nah F them.

Three things I want you all to do.
1. If you have a paid dept serving you. Go and see if you can do a ride along. Or go and see if you can tour the station and look around. Obviously call first
2. Watch Burn the documentary Dennis Leary did about the Detroit Fire Dept. To give you and idea of the day to day life in one of the worst cities in the US. And then watch Burn 2.
Then watch Heroine on netflix. I might know a few people in that one

 

[txjustin]

The only way to know is to eliminate public service unions and let the free market work.

Nailed it. Odd a hunting late is not for the free market


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Undomesticated]

Being a first responder is tough work, no doubt. Whether paid or volunteer — paramedic, EMT, firefighter, law enforcement, etc — I have the utmost respect for anyone taking care of others during their time of need. As a former volunteer EMT myself and the son of parents with a combined 80 years or so of volunteer medial/firefighting, I know how hard this can be.

I have no issues with pay, but I do have issues with the shifts firefighters work. Outside of staffing emergencies, it makes no sense to pay someone for a 24-hour shift, let alone a 48-hour shift. Come on. I don't want to share the road with someone who has potentially been up all night, and I certainly don't want these people making critical medical decisions for me or my loved ones. No thanks.

Now, 8- or 12-hour shifts? That makes sense. Put in your time. Earn the big money that you deserve. Go home to your family and sleep. And then repeat the process with a sharp mind. Getting paid to sleep and regularly having a week or more off would be sweet, but I wouldn't want to do it. Too much emotional baggage from the horrific things these people see on a daily basis.

We work 48's. I can say I have never witnessed nor heard of any sort of mistake being made due to sleep deprivation. If we have a busy night, we manage our downtime accordingly. You learn quick. The benefit of such a sought-after occupation where hundreds compete for few positions? We get to hire some pretty special individuals.

24's and 48's come with many benefits. Firefighters can live in more affordable locales and commute (many, many firefighters cannot afford to live in the communities they serve), firefighters can work second jobs (you know, so the city doesn't have to overpay us as much), less administration needed due to easier staffing, the overtime budget is lower, a more content workforce, better crew cohesion and bonding, better family life (and in turn mental health).

There are some departments that are just too busy for 48's and maybe even 24's, for sure. NYFD can't do 48/96. But for many, it is a great way to go for the worker, the Department, and the taxpayer.

 

[JFK]

I imagine people who like to complain about firefighters buying food on duty are the same people who whine to the HOA when you leave your garage can in your driveway.

Some people aren’t happy unless they have something to complain about.

They are the same person. A very vocal minority. Same folks that complain about how much some of us make in OT without conceding that it came at the cost of working many extra hours away from the family.

 

[CorbLand]

Nailed it. Odd a hunting late is not for the free market


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even more odd when someone reads one ten page thread and comes to the conclusion that this place is not for a free market.

 

[wnelson14]

You'd really loose your shit at this one. I had crews "allegedly" shopping for cars, going to the hardware store for things, getting ice cream. Might have happened, could have happened, not for sure.

I did 26 years on the job, retired. We were fire based with some EMS 1st responder. Meaning we went to fires, car wrecks, etc. We assisted the county EMS on certain calls or when they called for help, needing a driver, lift assists, extra set of hands.

I worked for the county EMS and when I started there in 1991 I made $8.87 an hour for 24 hours. I left to play fireman about a year later and I think made $12.00 an hour for 24 hours. I remember the EMS as EMS ran triple the calls the FD did and still does. (I was a paramedic) I knew what I was getting into going fire. Nobody wants to work in the "welfare taxi".
You want to pissed about a waste of your tax dollars? Tackle the abuse of the welfare system.
Everybody wants to fight fire, and we fought a lot of fire in my little city. My man Buckeye works for one of the larger FDs in the country and gets his dick knocked in the dirt daily running EMS.
He needs to be paid more for the work amount he does.

I went to nursing school while working fulltime as one of the benefits of the job is trading shifts. I knew I wanted to make more to make up for my low income and not take a chance at dyeing to do it.

Which vehicle to take on a call? Some depts "combo" meaning there are 4-6 members in the station. They take what ever vehicle is needed. The fire truck or the ambulance. The idea of a small EMS rig such as a pick up is a good one. Cheap, fits everywhere, carries what you need. 4 guys are on a squad call and hand of to the ambo crew, a fire comes in or they drive by a car wreck. Well, they left the truck they need back at the station. In this business, its hard to justify cost/expense to the publics "why do you drive the fire engine for a broken finger or chest pain call". These rigs are $500,000 and up. And running first response puts the miles and hours on them quick.

I guess the same could be said, about taking the truck to get the meal. Lets be honest here, I started work at 0700AM. I am not going to the store before work. The ones complaining are the same ones wanting a fire truck at bobbie sues birthday party. (not directed at you).

Private EMS pays peanuts because they can. "EMS" attracts a population that believes they will get to save lives. So they get into an EMT class, some maybe a Paramedic class. And then they end up working for bubbas ambulance service doing transports all day. And they don't quit because they can kill themselves on fast food and overtime while still waiting for that life to save. EMS has and will always be the asshole of public service. I once went to a fast food restaurant when I was working EMS. Gal at the counter asked a co worker, they get a discount right? "No that's just for the police, and the fire dept. Now I didn't look for nor, expect anything. But we never went back and we told the other crews as well. See private or 3rd service EMS lives on fast food, as they may never get a real meal during the shift.

Use to be, Firefighters were cool and everybody loves them. The police, lets be nice and give them a discount or free shit and they will maybe left us off a ticket one day. EMS, who? what is EMS, OH! the ambulance drives. nah F them.

Three things I want you all to do.
1. If you have a paid dept serving you. Go and see if you can do a ride along. Or go and see if you can tour the station and look around. Obviously call first
2. Watch Burn the documentary Dennis Leary did about the Detroit Fire Dept. To give you and idea of the day to day life in one of the worst cities in the US. And then watch Burn 2.
Then watch Heroine on netflix. I might know a few people in that one

appreciate the response, many on here seem to be confusing not understanding the system or how is works with complaining.
I never once thought they were underpaid.

 

[tony]

You need to be asking about all the gags and pranks firemen do!
All we have is time.

 

[Amos Keeto]

Didn't go through all ten pages, but here's my perspective!

I worked for various municipalities. The last one for over 10 years.
Therefore, I know of what I speak.
I held a Texas Class B Surface Water License.
It was normal for us to provide over 300 MGD (million gallons per day) EVERY DAY during the summer months.
We pulled raw (lake & river) water into 4 different plants, treated it chemically, filtered it, stored it and pumped it into a delivery system that provided water to several million people in 3 counties and multiple small utilities.
To maintain our licensure, we had to earn CEU's every year. A twenty hour class plus a test at the end. You had to score AT LEAST 80% or no CEU's!

1. With reasonable care and a waterhose I'll never need a fireman.
2. The ONLY time I don't have a gun on my hip is when I'm in bed or in the shower. To me, 9-1-1 is "Dial-A-Prayer". I live out in the country. The quickest a deputy can get to me is about 30 minutes.
3. Several years ago, the county "Enhanced 9-1-1" updated our address from a route/box to a numbered county road system. EMT's "STILL" can't find us!
4. Biologically, humans can seldom live more than 3 days without water.

re #1 - the largest town I worked for, the fire department was "union". Anytime they felt like they needed a raise, they threatened to strike.
re #2 - more than ONCE the police department threatened to strike for wages and benefits.

The water department had "representatives", no union. When WE threatened to walk out over wages and benefits, the city and city council threatened to fire ANYBODY who "walked out"! The phrase, "You're essential!" was frequently thrown out! Nobody cried "essential" when police and fire threatened to "walk out"! (?)

Our wages and benefits were light-years behind fire and police!
Many times on the news, I heard, "I'm sure glad the (fire/police) department showed up when they did!"
NOBODY ever reported, "I got thirsty! I turned on my tap and the Water Department provided me with more than I could drink! Clean, clear, fresh water!"
Wanna hear a citizen raise old Billy hell? Let 'em turn on their tap and no water comes out!

Q: What is the "ONLY" municipal department that makes a profit?
A: Yup! The Water Department!

Are fire/police "overpaid"? Both my kids are LEO's, so I'm a bit biased!
With that said, the youngest (Fed LEO) is, in my estimation, HIGHLY overpaid!
The oldest (small town PD), on the other hand, is grotesquely underpaid!

Do we, the American public, NEED fire and police?
YES!

Oh yeah! Another phone call we got constantly!
Ever go by a crew working on a water main break and one or two men are down in the hole working and 3 or 4 are standing around the hole, leaning on a shovel?
It's the job of the guys standing around to dig the guys out if the hole should cave in!

 

[SWOHTR]

Ever go by a crew working on a water main break and one or two men are down in the hole working and 3 or 4 are standing around the hole, leaning on a shovel?
It's the job of the guys standing around to dig the guys out if the hole should cave in!

…why not use trench shoring…? Save you the labor cost…?

 

[cnelk]

I’ve heard that firemen do calendars. Is that true?

Do they get compensation for them? Hahaha

 

[EZduzIT]

Most incidents/ accidents I observe departments have multiple vehicles at the scene including tahoes/pickup trucks. why not use those? Leave the engines ready to go? Maybe some do what I just described but I have never seen it.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about

 

[NCTrees]

Did anybody else read this whole thread to find out where firefighters make $200k a year.

Somebody let us know - I am sick of desk jockey work.

You can search around here - https://transparentcalifornia.com/ and will find piles of firefighters making well over $200k a year. Yes, I’m guessing they’ll all include a bunch of overtime to make that. But so what? I don’t know how any work gets done on a “standard” eight hour work day anyhow, no matter what the job is.

Now, overpaid? No, I tend to think not. First, it’s a subjective metric and no one’s opinion is better than another. Second, I fall back to the fact that folks typically get paid what the market will bear. In the case of public sector workers, well, if society felt that these workers are overpaid they could do something about it at the ballot box. But the wages keep going up so it seems to me the majority of voters aren’t overly offended by public sector pay rates.

That said, at least in Cali, they are paid very, very well with excellent benefits. To make that extra cheddar, yeah, it’ll take them away from friends, family, recreation and all that, but that’s the trade off.

 

[EZduzIT]

This is a spicy one. I’ll shoot. Current FF for a big city, currently making 98k a year plus benefits. That said if I was the sole earner I couldn’t afford a cracker box house the city. Also I would love for some people to come get hands deep in the blood, gore, drugs, shit, piss, and puke, sleepless nights, dealing with homeless addicts all the time while wearing a smile. I think I’m fairly compensated, do I think EMS should make more that is for sure. Yes some days can be quite or nice, but I’m being paid to be available 24-7, 365 to do some gnarly stuff if need be, which may being throwing a ladder to your kids bedroom while your house is burning, or putting pressure on a nasty abdominal wound so you don’t bleed out.
As far as cutting pay, I think you would get a lot less competence and less qualified personnel. I’d rather have a guy who is a professional showing up when my family needs them than someone who does it 1 a month… no offense to volunteering, but it just isn’t the same,

I’m open to any questions though so shoot

This is the golden comment for all you uninformed. Thanks for explaining Hnthrdr. Our spouses and kids put up with a lot being gone for 24-72 hours. When you’re running the 12-20+ calls a day and long night it takes a toll over 30 years. The risks are real. How do you explain to your wife you just got stuck by an addicts needle and have HIV now from a med call you just ran. To those of you with no clue go back to your IT job and stay in your lane.

 

[alecvg]

You can search around here - https://transparentcalifornia.com/ and will find piles of firefighters making well over $200k a year. Yes, I’m guessing they’ll all include a bunch of overtime to make that. But so what? I don’t know how any work gets done on a “standard” eight hour work day anyhow, no matter what the job is.

Now, overpaid? No, I tend to think not. First, it’s a subjective metric and no one’s opinion is better than another. Second, I fall back to the fact that folks typically get paid what the market will bear. In the case of public sector workers, well, if society felt that these workers are overpaid they could do something about it at the ballot box. But the wages keep going up so it seems to me the majority of voters aren’t overly offended by public sector pay rates.

That said, at least in Cali, they are paid very, very well with excellent benefits. To make that extra cheddar, yeah, it’ll take them away from friends, family, recreation and all that, but that’s the trade off.

To be fair, from what I hear, (not first hand experience) there are many departments in CA that have mandatory overtime, (mando). You might get off a 24 or 48 hour shift, get home, and get called back in for a mandatory shift. Takes a major toll on you and your relationships.

Also, many of the departments there, as elsewhere in the west, may be on Wildland for 14 day shifts, easy way to rack up a pile of overtime.

My point is, some of this overtime and time away is not desired, and out of their control.

 

[wnelson14]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about

Yes thank you, I don't…. just stating what I observed and asking a question, thank you to the stand up guys that explained the reasoning in all the previous posts.

 

[NCTrees]

To be fair, from what I hear, (not first hand experience) there are many departments in CA that have mandatory overtime, (mando). You might get off a 24 or 48 hour shift, get home, and get called back in for a mandatory shift. Takes a major toll on you and your relationships.

Also, many of the departments there, as elsewhere in the west, may be on Wildland for 14 day shifts, easy way to rack up a pile of overtime.

My point is, some of this overtime and time away is not desired, and out of their control.

Agreed, seems to be lot of burn out and I’m not making light of the OT. I’m sure it does take a toll. My point being that it comes with the territory (state firefighter, no clue on municipal to the OPs question), so folks jumping into that particular career should know the full “cost” of those paychecks.

 

[WMDM]

UNDERPAID

OP I don't think society is "conditioned" to not consider cutting firefighter wages. I think we all already damn well know they are already underpaid.

I've always thought if you feel they are overpaid, put in an application! I'm not a firefighter but see firsthand some of what they do.

Thanks to anyone who has served and hope those who are currently get to be with family this Christmas.

 

[Smallie]

My Dad was a firefighter for 30 years near a major city and to see what it’s done to his body post retirement I would say firemen are grossly underpaid regardless of the pension benefits. Terrible lungs, a knee surgery, a shoulder surgery, back issues and an awful sleep schedule which he still struggles with even 12 years after retirement. They don’t get to enjoy those retirement benefits very long. We no longer get to hunt as hard or do the same kind of hunting we used to do but I still make sure he can sit in a deer blind. It’s just not the same man I remember walking miles a day in pheasant fields after a dog. He can barely get out of the parking lot now.

For the people that complain about seeing firemen shopping during shift and bringing a truck or an engine to grocery shop this was an actual thing that happened in my hometown. The city told them to stop doing this and send one person. Well the response times took the city out of ISO 16 (which is one of the fastest response times in the country) to almost double the time after this because they had to wait for that one person to get back to the house to respond or send response from a firehouse that was further away while that one person was gone. Also public complaints made about wages too high so they cut one person per shift vehicle which resulted in slower response time since there was less people doing the same amount of work on a call. People should really be careful what they wish for especially in times of need when 911 is dialed.