AkMtnRunner
WKR
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2016
- Messages
- 928
I've listened to a recent Exo Mountain Gear's podcast titled Building the Mountain Hunter: Physiology, Foundations, and the 20-Week Training Plan with John Frieh from Evoke Endurance. I've also watched Mindful Hunter's youtube video on the same program. I guess it's time for people to start training again so this subject is getting a lot of attention. I feel the need to point something out.
Let me first say that I wholeheartedly agree with their training program. I think it hits the nail on the head for the demands of backcountry hunting, at least much more than other popular training models. Except, there's one serious miscommunication that will leave room for confusion and possible benefits left on the table.
In Exo's podcast, John equates the aerobic system with just the fat metabolism (lipolysis) pathway. At one point, he mentions some of his athletes starting training at 14 min/mi aerobic threshold, training themselves to an 8 min/mi threshold, “which as another way of saying—what is the pace that you can move at all day because you are using fat for the production of ATP, which isn’t going to run out”.
There is actually a large step between moving just on fat and what John is referring to as the aerobic threshold (he mentions 5 min/mi of elite marathon runners). I can assure you, those runners’ are burning a massive amount of glycogen to move at that intensity. To understand what the true fat metabolic pace is, think about when we’ve run out of glycogen or in the competitive endurance expression “bonked”; and only then is just fat being used. Yes, fat burning can be vastly improved and should be, but no matter how well it is, we can still be that much better by not neglecting the potential of the glycogen system. Even the most well trained aerobic athlete's bonked state burning just fat is far below their true endurance potential.
To continue the distance running example, modern marathon preparation and more similar to backcountry hunting demands--ultra marathon events (lasting 6-24 hours)--performance is seeing a rapid step forward by increasing the carbohydrate intake. Partly by improving the digestibility of it, but still more carbohydrate, no less. But how can that be, when glycogen (carbohydrate) means inefficient use of energy, lactate burn, and bonking??? What is not talked about by Evoke (at least in these recent popular discussions) is Aerobic Glycolysis and its potential.
Aerobic glycolysis is very different than anaerobic glycolysis. Often, it's lumped together into simply glycolysis. And in these recent discussions, only fat metabolism unlocks the use of mitochondria. In reality, in the presence of oxygen, glycolysis continues in mitochondria unlocking 32 ATP's instead of the often purported 2 produced via anaerobic glycolysis for each glycogen molecule. For reference, think racing a 10k to half marathon for peak aerobic glycolysis and 400m track race for peak anaerobic glycolysis. It's a big difference.
Then, contrast that "half marathon" performance state with the "bonked" state. And there you have the difference between being at our best hunting performance and a physical and psychological collapse. The difference is supplied by the aerobic glycolysis. It should also be noted that our brains are only fueled by glucose (broken down glycogen) and we can't make good decisions in the field if we've neglected glycogen storage and fueling. Having a well trained and increased storage of glycogen is imperative in endurance sport and backcountry hunting.
Now, I need to reaffirm that I believe Evoke's actual training program does train the aerobic glycolysis system. I am making the point that it should get acknowledged and given proper attention. This is why even guys like Cliff Grey, who according podcasts, avoids carbohydrates in regular life but has learned that there's no getting around fueling with carbohydrates while hunting.
I will also say that the typical (not everyone's) nature of backcountry hunting probably lends itself extremely well to maximizing the aerobic metabolism of glycogen and fueling with carbohydrates too. Getting into the backcountry will take multiple periods of several hours of moderate work with periods of rest and refueling. Then when in the hunting area, more low activity periods to further refuel glycogen while glassing. Then probably moderate, maybe even high-but-sustained efforts to hunt the animal; and at the end of which, still having plenty of glycogen (from training the storage of it), to make our best shooting judgements. And finally, still having a lot of glycogen left to carry heavy loads and stay in high spirits. Again, I'll reference the bonked state vs the half-marathon state. Our goal should be to perform longer towards the half-marathon state before decreasing down to the bonked state.
Again, I am not concerned that their training system leaves it out, but if it is not understood by the user, there's going to be confusion and money left on the table. It's an important piece to understand the whole big picture of endurance training, pacing, and fueling.
Let me first say that I wholeheartedly agree with their training program. I think it hits the nail on the head for the demands of backcountry hunting, at least much more than other popular training models. Except, there's one serious miscommunication that will leave room for confusion and possible benefits left on the table.
In Exo's podcast, John equates the aerobic system with just the fat metabolism (lipolysis) pathway. At one point, he mentions some of his athletes starting training at 14 min/mi aerobic threshold, training themselves to an 8 min/mi threshold, “which as another way of saying—what is the pace that you can move at all day because you are using fat for the production of ATP, which isn’t going to run out”.
There is actually a large step between moving just on fat and what John is referring to as the aerobic threshold (he mentions 5 min/mi of elite marathon runners). I can assure you, those runners’ are burning a massive amount of glycogen to move at that intensity. To understand what the true fat metabolic pace is, think about when we’ve run out of glycogen or in the competitive endurance expression “bonked”; and only then is just fat being used. Yes, fat burning can be vastly improved and should be, but no matter how well it is, we can still be that much better by not neglecting the potential of the glycogen system. Even the most well trained aerobic athlete's bonked state burning just fat is far below their true endurance potential.
To continue the distance running example, modern marathon preparation and more similar to backcountry hunting demands--ultra marathon events (lasting 6-24 hours)--performance is seeing a rapid step forward by increasing the carbohydrate intake. Partly by improving the digestibility of it, but still more carbohydrate, no less. But how can that be, when glycogen (carbohydrate) means inefficient use of energy, lactate burn, and bonking??? What is not talked about by Evoke (at least in these recent popular discussions) is Aerobic Glycolysis and its potential.
Aerobic glycolysis is very different than anaerobic glycolysis. Often, it's lumped together into simply glycolysis. And in these recent discussions, only fat metabolism unlocks the use of mitochondria. In reality, in the presence of oxygen, glycolysis continues in mitochondria unlocking 32 ATP's instead of the often purported 2 produced via anaerobic glycolysis for each glycogen molecule. For reference, think racing a 10k to half marathon for peak aerobic glycolysis and 400m track race for peak anaerobic glycolysis. It's a big difference.
Then, contrast that "half marathon" performance state with the "bonked" state. And there you have the difference between being at our best hunting performance and a physical and psychological collapse. The difference is supplied by the aerobic glycolysis. It should also be noted that our brains are only fueled by glucose (broken down glycogen) and we can't make good decisions in the field if we've neglected glycogen storage and fueling. Having a well trained and increased storage of glycogen is imperative in endurance sport and backcountry hunting.
Now, I need to reaffirm that I believe Evoke's actual training program does train the aerobic glycolysis system. I am making the point that it should get acknowledged and given proper attention. This is why even guys like Cliff Grey, who according podcasts, avoids carbohydrates in regular life but has learned that there's no getting around fueling with carbohydrates while hunting.
I will also say that the typical (not everyone's) nature of backcountry hunting probably lends itself extremely well to maximizing the aerobic metabolism of glycogen and fueling with carbohydrates too. Getting into the backcountry will take multiple periods of several hours of moderate work with periods of rest and refueling. Then when in the hunting area, more low activity periods to further refuel glycogen while glassing. Then probably moderate, maybe even high-but-sustained efforts to hunt the animal; and at the end of which, still having plenty of glycogen (from training the storage of it), to make our best shooting judgements. And finally, still having a lot of glycogen left to carry heavy loads and stay in high spirits. Again, I'll reference the bonked state vs the half-marathon state. Our goal should be to perform longer towards the half-marathon state before decreasing down to the bonked state.
Again, I am not concerned that their training system leaves it out, but if it is not understood by the user, there's going to be confusion and money left on the table. It's an important piece to understand the whole big picture of endurance training, pacing, and fueling.
