Are City Firefighters Overpaid?

[Silver Wings]

Also keep in mind salaries are based on a 56 hour work week. There is no time and a half pay until you start exceeding 212 hours in a fixed 27 day period. When you start doing the math on hourly FF pay it looks like most of the trades and in many cases pales to it.

 

[TaperPin]

This is a good thread, if for nothing else it helps educate folks about fire fighting as a career or a hobby.

In the smallest rural communities there may only be one old military tanker and nobody gets paid a dime - nobody else is going to save your houses, so those that can help do what they can.

As a town gets larger, and/or funding sources increase, the number of full time positions increases as does pay for volunteers. Places like Golden pay volunteers and require a minimum number of shifts per year. Not what most people think of as a volunteer. Colorado is full of young people who like some adventure, so it’s surprising how many local, state and federal positions can be staffed quite economically, without a career path that includes any kind of retirement or advancement. Still, I’m sure towns like Golden are a revolving door where sharp guys and gals get trained as firefighters, gain some experience and then leave for full time positions. The use of volunteers saves the city money and definitely isn’t for the benefit of the people doing the work. Every city would let people work for less than they are worth if they could get away with it.

Full time firefighters are generally quite sharp and dedicated - these same guys would make as much if they were linemen, commercial electricians/plumbers/etc. They are every bit as sharp as most white collar workers, or small business owners making as much or more.

The talk about union workers being overpaid, or a dead end job being just as good as something with a career path to retirement, is all coming from employers who are in the business of nickel and diming employees/suppliers to maximize profits. I tell every kid that will listen to do everything they can to avoid dead end jobs that only provide short term cash, and focus on an actual career.

 

[Gadjet]

I've never understood why people always want to go after first responders and education. The real focus should be on worthless politicians that constantly want their hands in our pockets so they can figure out more dumb ways to spend it! First responders have to deal with a ton of crap that that the average person couldn't deal with. So my answer to the original question is absolutely not, we should pay them more.

 

[downthepipe]

I've never understood why people always want to go after first responders and education. The real focus should be on worthless politicians that constantly want their hands in our pockets so they can figure out more dumb ways to spend it! First responders have to deal with a ton of crap that that the average person couldn't deal with. So my answer to the original question is absolutely not, we should pay them more.

Politicians are only a handful of people. What about all the complaining about the “lazy beurocrats” in city county state and federal government? For example all day long on this site people complain about game and fish being lazy and only in it to fill “their” pockets. That’s one thing that is interesting about this thread is that most people support good pay for fire and police (and teachers even) but when it comes to the accountants and insurance people who help administer their benefits it seems like all people do is complain about “the government”. News flash - firefighting is government just as much as the IRS is. In the end It’s all a worthy discussion because it’s public funds and we are all entitled to an opinion and a vote…

By the way I appreciate lots of the informative posts especially those of you in the field. I have many firefighting friends and all would give you the shirts off their back and a hand whenever you need it. The tangent about grocery shopping was stupid.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Politicians are only a handful of people. What about all the complaining about the “lazy beurocrats” in city county state and federal government? For example all day long on this site people complain about game and fish being lazy and only in it to fill “their” pockets. That’s one thing that is interesting about this thread is that most people support good pay for fire and police (and teachers even) but when it comes to the accountants and insurance people who help administer their benefits it seems like all people do is complain about “the government”. News flash - firefighting is government just as much as the IRS is. In the end It’s all a worthy discussion because it’s public funds and we are all entitled to an opinion and a vote…

By the way I appreciate lots of the informative posts especially those of you in the field. I have many firefighting friends and all would give you the shirts off their back and a hand whenever you need it. The tangent about grocery shopping was stupid.

So what do you do for work?

 

[ericmcd]

Why don't people equate supply and demand with labor like everything else? Labor is nothing more then a commodity. How hard or easy a job is has nothing to do with how much you should be paid. Pay is dictated by how easily replaced you are. I know absolutely nothing about the job market of firefighters but their pay is driven by competition of the market (ie state, federal and other cities) if they want the best talent they have to offer the best compensation. If their pay is fair or bureaucracy I'm not sure but it's a lot more then just how hard someone works

 

[CorbLand]

I've never understood why people always want to go after first responders and education. The real focus should be on worthless politicians that constantly want their hands in our pockets so they can figure out more dumb ways to spend it! First responders have to deal with a ton of crap that that the average person couldn't deal with. So my answer to the original question is absolutely not, we should pay them more.

This is true in most government positions. Most people like to look at the lower level employees while it is admin roles that really seem to rake the money in. I hear it all the time in my local area. Complain about the people making 30-80K a year while the department heads and up are taking in 150K to 300K.

The university here got a new president and promptly spent ~20K getting them a new golf cart...but dont worry, me typing this on the clock is what is really costing you more in taxes.

 

[Randle]

Walk a week in their boots and not just watch a week . Then answer the question

 

[Gadjet]

This is true in most government positions. Most people like to look at the lower level employees while it is admin roles that really seem to rake the money in. I hear it all the time in my local area. Complain about the people making 30-80K a year while the department heads and up are taking in 150K to 300K.

The university here got a new president and promptly spent ~20K getting them a new golf cart...but dont worry, me typing this on the clock is what is really costing you in more taxes.

Yeah those dang grocery store trips, but don't pay any attention to the elephant in the room.

 

[saskhunter]

Are full time firefighters overpaid? No!

Are volunteers underpaid and under funded? Yes!

 

[KWT]

This is true in most government positions. Most people like to look at the lower level employees while it is admin roles that really seem to rake the money in. I hear it all the time in my local area. Complain about the people making 30-80K a year while the department heads and up are taking in 150K to 300K.

The university here got a new president and promptly spent ~20K getting them a new golf cart...but dont worry, me typing this on the clock is what is really costing you in more taxes.

Yeah those dang grocery store trips, but don't pay any attention to the elephant in the room.



Cant both be viewed as wasteful?

 

[WCB]

I mean pay them to sleep, watch T.V.. play ping pong, etc. But you draw the line at going to the store? Engine is with them and their gear is there so they are as ready as any place. Drivers can train and get hours on equipment etc.

You are paying them by shift (24hr or 48hr) or whatever. If it effected readiness I could see some sort of argument but since it doesn't who cares.

 

[CorbLand]

Yeah those dang grocery store trips, but don't pay any attention to the elephant in the room.



Cant both be viewed as wasteful?

Yes, they both can but why is it that there are 10 complaints about the grocery store trips to every 1 there is about the others?

Why do the trips to the store really matter that much? I am not as familiar with FF pay but my guess would be that they are on the clock when they are there so why does it matter that they are getting groceries versus sitting in the fire house? How many times can you clean a toilet, wash a truck, or organize things? Do we not all get bored while we are at work? Do we all not have down time?

 

[Fire_9]

Yeah those dang grocery store trips, but don't pay any attention to the elephant in the room.



Cant both be viewed as wasteful?

Nope...

 

[KWT]

Im not trying to paint with a broad brush. Can only speak for one good friend. I just cant get behind the oil changes, car washes, welding/woodworking projects, buying stuff off marketplace all on the taxpayers dime. Not to mention that he RARELY sees a structure fire. The vast majority of his calls are habitual drug users overdosing, inmates with chest pains getting a day trip to the local hospital, etc.

I thank him and all other first responders for all they do. But am I not allowed to call a spade a spade?

Hell, he's even brought the engine to his house on multiple occasions for a photo

 

[Lawnboi]

Yes, they both can but why is it that there are 10 complaints about the grocery store trips to every 1 there is about the about others?

Why do the trips to the store really matter that much? I am not as familiar with FF pay but my guess would be that they are on the clock when they are there so why does it matter that they are getting groceries versus sitting in the fire house? How many times can you clean a toilet, wash a truck, or organize things? Do we not all get bored while we are at work? Do we all not have down time?

Part of working as a team is eating as a team. Show me a crew that can’t eat together and I’d bet they can’t do about anything well together. On a 48 hour shift, sometimes with people coming and going it’s almost impossible to pre plan, and pre buy meals. When store trips are done it would be just as we would be doing absolutely anything else in the “down time” of our job, we are always ready to respond. Busting up your crew then having an emergency that requires real time changes is best done as a team, as we operate, not by one guy flying around in a pickup truck.

People don’t see or understand any of that. They just want to complain. We have crap managers touted as leaders and higher up government persons that would work us every single day non stop whether it effects us responding to emergencies or not, I’d be much more worried if you dont see a crew in good spirits shopping for a meal.

 

[Lawnboi]

Im not trying to paint with a broad brush. Can only speak for one good friend. I just cant get behind the oil changes, car washes, welding/woodworking projects, buying stuff off marketplace all on the taxpayers dime. Not to mention that he RARELY sees a structure fire. The vast majority of his calls are habitual drug users overdosing, inmates with chest pains getting a day trip to the local hospital, etc.

I thank him and all other first responders for all they do. But am I not allowed to call a spade a spade?

Hell, he's even brought the engine to his house on multiple occasions for a photo

Fire/ems job is to respond to emergencies. All else is secondary. Think about that and maybe you will have the answer.

 

[CorbLand]

Im not trying to paint with a broad brush. Can only speak for one good friend. I just cant get behind the oil changes, car washes, welding/woodworking projects, buying stuff off marketplace all on the taxpayers dime. Not to mention that he RARELY sees a structure fire. The vast majority of his calls are habitual drug users overdosing, inmates with chest pains getting a day trip to the local hospital, etc.

I thank him and all other first responders for all they do. But am I not allowed to call a spade a spade?

Hell, he's even brought the engine to his house on multiple occasions for a photo

The best way you can view them is that they are an insurance policy. You hate paying for it, hope you never have to use it but are really glad it is there when you do. Their job is to respond to emergencies. I really dont think we want to go down the road of complaining that there isnt enough emergencies...

Its like my InReach. Its one of the few investments I have that I hope really only costs me money.

 

[JFK]

If looked at on a dollar per year basis, it’s probably the cheapest service most homeowners pay for. I work for a special district and I did the math a few years ago…it equates to something on the order of a few hundred bucks per year, per tax paying household. This is in Ca with high home values so it’s likely much less in many parts of the country. In return they get 24/7/365 access to fire protection, advanced life support EMS, vehicle extrication, plus a workforce that’s highly trained in technical rescue (rope, structural collapse, water, hazmat). Even if people have less emergent issues like a flooded basement we’ll come out and figure that out for them as well. We do not send a bill for our work. We don’t skimp on our efforts or resources, and will bring as many guys necessary to safely and effectively fix the problem. For a few hundred bucks a year. It’s a bargain.

 

[woods89]

"I'm not paid necessarily for what I do, but what I may be called on at any moment to do."

I'm not a fireman, I work in construction, but this saying gets brought up occasionally. I think it fits.

Ernest K. Gann, in his terrific book Fate is the Hunter, says airline pilots are grossly overpaid almost all of their working hours, but they earn their pay and more in a few assorted frantic moments of their career.

If someone has to do CPR off in the weeds on a patient that's been ejected from a car, or do entry on a burning trailer house, I think they should be appropriately compensated.