Are Berger failures real?

[Fire_9]

I have had a few questionable experiences with them but have had way more great experiences than bad. I have recovered a few bullets and most have had very little weight retention and most have been found on the offside hide. I've run them through an '06, 7 mag, 300 win, and my new favorite 6.5x47. The only bad experiences I've had were with my 7 mag and that was before I learned the trick of checking the tips to make sure they were open. I went back a checked that lot of bullets after I was told about the tips being plugged and found very few that I would hunt with.

I've been shooting my 6.5x47 with 130 gr VLDs for three seasons now with fantastic results. My most recent experience though has me scratching my head. I'm not complaining about the performance as it hammered this WT's heart but I'll say the bullet opened in an unconventional manner. It just looks like a mess of copper but you can see the tip of the bullet didn't open.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Now I’ve never experienced a fail myself using a variety of 7mm caliber (140/168 VLDS), or 30 cal Berger’s (210’s/215’s/230’s) and I’ve seen 25+ animals die with them over the last few years. A friend killed a buck in 2015 that penciled through the bucks heart at 400 yards. Shooting a 168 VLD out of a 30-06. Didn’t recover bullet but it had a wound channel like an FMJ. Got a pic last night of a 168VLD from a buddy in Alaska shooting a 7mm around 2950fps. Recovered this bullet from their mountain goat at 730 yards. Quartering to them.... obviously a bullet failure.

With that said, I always check bullet tips for debris/obstructions and will continue to use them for everything. They just work great and until I have first hand experience of poor bullet performance I can’t argue with the history I have. YMMV

Mike


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[Mtslackcountry]

So can anyone elaborate on the method of cleaning out the bullet tip?

 

[maninthemaze]

Berger Bullet tip opening

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I have had a few questionable experiences with them but have had way more great experiences than bad. I have recovered a few bullets and most have had very little weight retention and most have been found on the offside hide. I've run them through an '06, 7 mag, 300 win, and my new favorite 6.5x47. The only bad experiences I've had were with my 7 mag and that was before I learned the trick of checking the tips to make sure they were open. I went back a checked that lot of bullets after I was told about the tips being plugged and found very few that I would hunt with.

I've been shooting my 6.5x47 with 130 gr VLDs for three seasons now with fantastic results. My most recent experience though has me scratching my head. I'm not complaining about the performance as it hammered this WT's heart but I'll say the bullet opened in an unconventional manner. It just looks like a mess of copper but you can see the tip of the bullet didn't open.

View attachment 61578

View attachment 61577

This illustrates the notion that Berger VLD's don't expand like other bullets. Most bullets expand at the tip, and begin peeling back along the shank, immediately upon impact. Most bullets are fully expanded within 1-1.5x the length of the bullet inside the animal. The Berger VLD instead relies on a fairly large hollow void behind the tip, combined with a very thin jacket at the nose, which results in the VLD penciling a few inches into the animal, during which time the hollow nose begins to collapse back onto itself and expose/disrupt the remainder of the jacket and core. Expansion is usually violent beyond this point. This expansion mechanism does not rely on an open tip to initiate expansion, instead relying on nose collapse. This is why you often see a pencil wound going in, and massive damage beyond a few inches of penetration, despite the fact that most VLD bullets have a tiny meplat that is often nearly closed off entirely. Most other bullets would cause very little internal trauma with this nose design, but they rely on a different expansion mechanism.

I first heard this expansion theory from John Barsness after he worked with Berger to thoroughly test the Hunting VLD on some cull hunts. Your picture supports that claim, showing that the nose collapsed and even tore off of the bullet body, leaving the remainder of the bullet to expand violently and cause major internal trauma. Mike's photo, below yours, shows the same tendency. You can see that the nose had begun to collapse, but didn't complete the process, likely due to minimal impact velocity.

 

[odin0226]

Intresring post, new spin on how a berger expands and why. I see valid points; but I'm not a balistician. I would love to see someone from berger jump in and shed some knowledge.

Better yet, a .308 230 gn Elite Hunter on the shelves

 

[maninthemaze]

Here's a picture of my antelope I shot two years ago. You can clearly see the exit wound on its hind quarter. The bullet entered the left front shoulder/ neck junction and exited the left hind quarter. It penciled completely through the animal. I never found the bullet, but I also didn't go digging through the intestinal area either. There weren't any bullet fragments any where near the shoulder or neck meat, just a hole. I've also had bullets poke holes through gallon milk jugs filled with water. It's what I practice my range/dial/wind check/shoot, shooting scenarios with.

So bullet failures do happen and they aren't always the shooters fault, like the low impact velocity reason stated above. My impact velocity was right at 2360. I'll still use Berger bullets. I just had a gun built specifically to shoot the 195 EOL. But I'll clean all the tips like Broz suggested.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[maninthemaze]

Intresring post, new spin on how a berger expands and why. I see valid points; but I'm not a balistician. I would love to see someone from berger jump in and shed some knowledge.

Better yet, a .308 230 gn Elite Hunter on the shelves

I trust Broz with just about everything he says. That man has definitely seen a lot of animals die at the hands of Berger bullets. If he recommends cleaning the tips, I'm cleaning mine.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[ckleeves]

I have recovered 4 Bergers this year that look exactly like Fire_9's picture. Three 215 hybrids and a 140 elite hunter. They all did the job just somewhat odd expansion but seems very common.

Had a 215 hybrid out of a 300 RUM pencil on a elk several years ago @ 450 yards. Saw the impact so knew it was a good hit but she made it about 300 yards. The tip was double checked on that one also.

All that being said I still shoot them. Shoot any bullet into enough game and your going to see one not perform like the 10 before it.

 

[odin0226]

I try and keep an open mind and I do value broz opinion as a SME. Who knows why they pencil ? Could be any number of variables, honestly I wouldn't be surprised if berger changed something in the MFG process, or in a given lot # that caused issues. Example : a higher Rockwell hardness/sheer strength level in the jacket, due to a new run on the machines. Sounds stupid, but honestly it doesn't take much to change metals properties. Is this fact?, far from.

I'm pretty sure no one has a bigger booboo lip than me this year. I drove 6000 miles to feed some wolves.

 

[Formidilosus]

Intresring post, new spin on how a berger expands and why. I see valid points; but I'm not a balistician. I would love to see someone from berger jump in and shed some knowledge.

Better yet, a .308 230 gn Elite Hunter on the shelves

Jordan is correct- the VLD's Connor expand outward like most. The nose collapses in on itself and then the bullet fragments outward. That mechanism works well, however if you drill the tips, they can start to expand conventionally.

 

[odin0226]

Something to consider:

In iraq, 2006 timeframe a JAG officer ordered the removal of all "hollow point" projectiles snipers were using , in accordance with geneva convention/ LOAC.

These were the M118LR , 175 gn SMK in 308 Win. The SMK is "similar" to a berger in design.

Now before everyone smashs me, this isn't proof that the berger performs the same way because they are differnt projectiles. Below is what has been officially released in regards to the SMK Open Tip Match:

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base.

The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.

This opinion has been coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, and the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, who concur with its contents and conclusions.

 

[mtmuley]

Jesus, what the heck does all that military drivel have to do with killing game? mtmuley

 

[odin0226]

Sorry, it was a bit much.

OTM dont peel or expand like a conventional hunting bullet. It enforces the point made by Jordan: that the nose collapses in the void on itself and initiates expansion.

So this brings to question the added value of cleaning the tip to ensure its open? I'm not convinced one way or the other. Broz says do it , dudes killed more crap than the plague.

Others say its nose collapse that causes expansion.

Point is: if it is nose collapse not the open tip that causes expansion, then the berger with the largest void in the nose area is more desirable for hunting, regardless of jacket thickness.

 

[Formidilosus]

Something to consider:

In iraq, 2006 timeframe a JAG officer ordered the removal of all "hollow point" projectiles snipers were using , in accordance with geneva convention/ LOAC.

These were the M118LR , 175 gn SMK in 308 Win. The SMK is "similar" to a berger in design.

Now before everyone smashs me, this isn't proof that the berger performs the same way because they are differnt projectiles. Below is what has been officially released in regards to the SMK Open Tip Match:

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base.

The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.

This opinion has been coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, and the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, who concur with its contents and conclusions.

Hays Parks description above of M118LR, is both correct for the audience it was intended for, and not for this one. SMK's while offering variable performance in tissue, generally create significantly more tissue damage than most FMJ's.

Even at that, performance in tissue between SMK's and Berger VLD's is very different. One should not look at one for what the other will do.

 

[2five7]

I've guided a lot of guys to a lot of animals, using just about every caliber and bullet design you can imagine. The only bullet that I thought under performed was the Accubond LR, little to no penetration on an average sized bull at 250 yards. Took 4 in the chest to put him down. Never had a Bull go more than 50 yards or so when hit with a Berger. Neck shots, shoulder shots, through the ribs, they've all died.

I guess the closest thing I've seen to a Berger failing is on a Bull from this year. Client shooting a 284 Win, 168 VLD, hit the south end of a north bound Bull at about 200 yards. I though for sure he would just shrug it off, so we ran up to try and get another one in him, he was stone dead 50 yards down the hill. The bullet had penetrated through the back ham up into the chest cavity, we didn't gut him so not sure what the bullet looked like. Maybe it penciled? No way of knowing, but a dead Bull is a dead Bull!

 

[odin0226]

I'm a huge berger fan, the point of comparing the 118LR to a berger was to support Jordan's comment on how a berger expands, via the void of material in the nose.

It also questions the need to ensure the tip is clean., As an OTM bullet, it doesnt rely on that tiny little hole for expansion.

 

[Broz]

Not trying to force anything on anyone. Only wish to supply first hand actual results of my own. Yes I check all tip on any hollow point bullet I hunt with. Yes I use a wire drill, no enlargement of the hole, just make sure it is open all the way to lead. I have never had a Berger "pencil" My biggest complaint would be the opposite, too much expansion with high impact velocities. That's with literally 100's of elk taken. But I know I can not get expansion long range with slowed velocities with bullets that are limited expansion up close. So I use what I know works best for the longest shot and still kills great up close. The last few weeks of elk season we have been whacking and stacking. All Bergers from the new 6.5 155 gr that has not been released yet to 300 gr OTM's and elite hunters. Over a dozen elk in 2 weeks. Here is a 215 we recovered about 5 days ago from just under the far side hide on a large cow elk at 400 yards. MV 3100 fps, impact velocity 2630 fps. 53% weight retention. Between the ribs going in, double lung, all arteries shredded off the heart nicked a rib going out. She spun 180* and ran with her ears pinned back and hunched up for 50 or so yards and fell dead. I love these results. Plenty of expansion, plenty of bullet carrying on through, plenty of fragments tearing up vital organs, huge internal oil leaks, chest cavity full of blood, good blood trail. But you be the judge. Here are the pics of what was just about to leave after blasting all the way to the far hide of a large elk.

 

[EastMT]

I've guided a lot of guys to a lot of animals, using just about every caliber and bullet design you can imagine. The only bullet that I thought under performed was the Accubond LR, little to no penetration on an average sized bull at 250 yards. Took 4 in the chest to put him down.

This is exactly my experience with LRAB, 2 shots in the kill zone broad side on an average size billy goat, 1-2" of penetration, very luckily he turned towards me and I put one in the brisket or I truly believe my Kodiak billy would have been lost. Will not make that mistake again.

 

[Beastmode]

I have had great results with Bergers. This year I started using a 6.5 creedmore instead of my 300 WM. Shooting the 130 grain VLD I have had excellent results. My daughter shot this whitetail at 300 yards and made a great shot. This is the exit hole.

I shot a 300 lb black bear last week at 150 yards quartering away with an impact velocity of 2730. The bullet entered the 3rd rib from the back and went through the top of the brisket near the vertebrae. Found the bullet lodged in the hide in front of the off shoulder. It weighed 55 grains.

While I do understand failures can happen with any bullet I have never had one. I have lost some meat on closer range high velocity impacts but as Broz stated you can’t have a bullet that expands slow at high velocities and fast at low velocities. Bergers work great for me.


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