AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Broomd]

Sounds to me like if you want a ram you’ll need strap on your boots and go get one…

Is there any other way? Asking for a friend...

Every ram we've ever killed was the result of 30 boot miles minimum. Sometimes twice that.

 

[Broomd]

TMA had 60 tags + Gov Tag.....9 sheep harvested.

DS206....Mt Harper had 4 tags.....3 hunters....1 sheep at 11 years old

DS 203...DCUA walk-in.....65 tags....61 reporting....44 hunted....12 rams with average age 8.5 years.

Wow, woeful numbers for some of the best hunts in the state. It sure reads as if 'draw' is the next step statewide. Most of us suspected that would come eventually.

 

[wantj43]

Wow, woeful numbers for some of the best hunts in the state. It sure reads as if 'draw' is the next step statewide. Most of us suspected that would come eventually.

One for three is obviously 33 % - 12/44 is 27 % success.

 

[cod007]

Those are some sad and disturbing numbers. Thanks Vern.

Curious why this is disturbing. I thought sheep hunting (any hunting, for that matter) was supposed to be ‘tough’. Twenty five percent success sounds pretty reasonable to me. I’d say even more than reasonable when u throw in a bunch of first time sheep slayers.

 

[Broomd]

One for three is obviously 33 % - 12/44 is 27 % success.

+1...be interesting to see the same statistics from roughly 15-20 years ago for hunters who actually hunted the tags. Around 2000+, TMA and DCU were fantatstic for anyone willing to put in the effort.

 

[VernAK]

+1...be interesting to see the same statistics from roughly 15-20 years ago for hunters who actually hunted the tags. Around 2000+, TMA and DCU were fantatstic for anyone willing to put in the effort.

I don't have all of TMA stats but here's a peak year out of DCUA:
2017....DS203....70 tags....70 reported....54 hunted.....28 rams avg age 8.7......52% success

2019 ...DS 204....70 tags.....70 reported....61 hunted......31 rams avg age9.1......51% success

2016.....DS206....4 tags....4 reported.......4 hunted......4 rams avg 10.0.......100% success

2020.....is the first year that I see any success less than 30%......but I only have 9 years of stats.

 

[Broomd]

I don't have all of TMA stats but here's a peak year out of DCUA:
2017....DS203....70 tags....70 reported....54 hunted.....28 rams avg age 8.7......52% success

2019 ...DS 204....70 tags.....70 reported....61 hunted......31 rams avg age9.1......51% success

2016.....DS206....4 tags....4 reported.......4 hunted......4 rams avg 10.0.......100% success

2020.....is the first year that I see any success less than 30%......but I only have 9 years of stats.

T/y. And those numbers reflect the solid success (and ram age) statistics that many of us remember.

 

[fatbacks]

Curious why this is disturbing. I thought sheep hunting (any hunting, for that matter) was supposed to be ‘tough’. Twenty five percent success sounds pretty reasonable to me. I’d say even more than reasonable when u throw in a bunch of first time sheep slayers.

I think he’s alluding to the fact that used to be one of the best sheep draw hunts in the state for opportunity to harvest a decent ram and now only 7 rams came out. Very bad if you compare to previous years.


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[Gobbler36]

In certain Alaska units, sheep are in trouble (19C is one example). So we need to look at the human component (human harvests) and deal with that, because we are not able to do predator control for non-human sheep predation (i.e. golden eagles, which are the main non-human predator). We also can't control avalanches and deep snows and winter rains etc that can lead to sheep mortalities).

Over the past two decades in 19C, nonresident sheep hunters (guided) have consistently taken 80% of the harvest. One guide who guided there for 20 years put in a proposal last year to cease all hunting for two years for everyone because of his concerns for the sheep population. He has since moved on to other areas in the state to guide sheep hunts.

This isn't rocket science. We need to limit the nonresident sheep hunters in areas like 19C to draw only with a limited allocation. We need to do the same elsewhere as well because if we don't the sheep will further decline and Alaskan residents are going to lose general sheep hunting opportunities.

Talking sheep is a little above my pay grade but it seems that NR opportunity is already extremely limited and cost a ton. Low draw odds and big cost for general hunts. It feels like Alaskan residents but the most pressure on sheep? Is this off base? I get that ppl that live there have more “claim” to the sheep, but how much more limited can you make NR opportunity there without making taking it away. Just like here in Idaho we are going to need to start looking at the effects of resident pressure here soon

 

[ColeyG]

Talking sheep is a little above my pay grade but it seems that NR opportunity is already extremely limited and cost a ton. Low draw odds and big cost for general hunts. It feels like Alaskan residents but the most pressure on sheep? Is this off base? I get that ppl that live there have more “claim” to the sheep, but how much more limited can you make NR opportunity there without making taking it away. Just like here in Idaho we are going to need to start looking at the effects of resident pressure here soon

The only limitations on sheep hunting for non-residents are guide availability and being willing and able to pay for a guide. Those are barriers to entry, certainly, but there are plenty of folks for whom these things are not limiting factors.

Regarding who puts the most "pressure" on sheep, that is a tricky question to answer and it depends on how you define pressure.

If my memory serves correctly, in a typical year non-residents make up about 20% of the sheep hunters in AK, and they kill roughly half of the rams taken each year with an average success rate of about 65%.

Residents in turn account for 80% of the hunters in the field, kill about half of the rams each year, and have an average success rate of a little less than 20%.

Most guided hunters spend a week and change in the hills chasing sheep as part of their trip, whereas many residents can make a number of smaller, shorter trips throughout the season, hunt sheep in a few different places, etc.

Rather than pressure, I look at it more in terms of population impact, and it seems that res and non-res (guides) have about the same impact on the overall population each year.

 

[Gobbler36]

The only limitations on sheep hunting for non-residents are guide availability and being willing and able to pay for a guide. Those are barriers to entry, certainly, but there are plenty of folks for whom these things are not limiting factors.

Regarding who puts the most "pressure" on sheep, that is a tricky question to answer and it depends on how you define pressure.

If my memory serves correctly, in a typical year non-residents make up about 20% of the sheep hunters in AK, and they kill roughly half of the rams taken each year with an average success rate of about 65%.

Residents in turn account for 80% of the hunters in the field, kill about half of the rams each year, and have an average success rate of a little less than 20%.

Most guided hunters spend a week and change in the hills chasing sheep as part of their trip, whereas many residents can make a number of smaller, shorter trips throughout the season, hunt sheep in a few different places, etc.

Rather than pressure, I look at it more in terms of population impact, and it seems that res and non-res (guides) have about the same impact on the overall population each year.

Good explanation
much of this is tricky and convoluted for sure would never in a million years want to contribute to the fall of the species but just seems taking something that is already almost out of reach and limiting it even further can’t be the answer, but again these things are complex with a lot of angles

 

[FairbanksFlies]

This thread has been mostly ram-centric, as it should be for a hunting talk. But taking sub-legal rams and second degree of kindred has nothing to do with the lack of ewes on the mountain. There just aren't many sheep!

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

$250 dollar bounty paid by the state for each wolf shot. $50 per coyote. Golden Eagle populations need to be studied and cropped a bit by predator control. There are some areas where hunting pairs of Golden Eagles have gotten too good at cropping ewes and lambs. They force bands of sheep into some more marginal feeding areas and that impacts winter survival. I am not going to say more about it but predator control is key. There are some areas of the state because of access and expenses of transportation that actually have numbers of mature "trophy" rams. The golden days of TMA and DCUA are over. Central and more western Alaska range are getting pummeled. Eventually the North Wrangells will start to fall because of hunting pressure. Those very effective Golden Eagle pairs need to be cropped in the Chugach, Kenai, Talkeetna and Central Alaska Ranges.

Wait a second, $250 dollar bounty on wolves. Is that statewide or no.

 

[Nick Muche]

Wait a second, $250 dollar bounty on wolves. Is that statewide or no.

There’s no bounty, he’s just saying in a perfect world (Sheep focused, moose focused, caribou focused) there would be…. Or even better, like it used to be, and folks could manage the predators in their area to a level that would promote a robust ungulate population… you know, for simple things like food.

 

[Sourdough]

The current reality is there is less to zero chance of ever getting a bounty on wolves.....Zero.
There is a much higher probability of all trophy hunting being illegal. If that went on a state wide vote, as liberal as Alaska has become.

I remember when we could hunt Polar Bears, I think that closed in roughly 72' or 73'. I could sure see, the "chance" of Dall Sheep becoming fully protected, and closed to all hunting......Forever. At some point in the future.

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

There’s no bounty, he’s just saying in a perfect world (Sheep focused, moose focused, caribou focused) there would be…. Or even better, like it used to be, and folks could manage the predators in their area to a level that would promote a robust ungulate population… you know, for simple things like food.

Phew, started packing my go bag and .300 Wby lol. I’d go in a heartbeat for something like that.

 

[wantj43]

This thread has been mostly ram-centric, as it should be for a hunting talk. But taking sub-legal rams and second degree of kindred has nothing to do with the lack of ewes on the mountain. There just aren't many sheep!

You are right the taking of sub-legal rams has nothing to do with lack of ewes - but does impact “opportunity” by removing animals that have the potential of being legally harvested is a year or so. Wounding lost - which is the gorilla in the room, potentially has the same impact.

 

[Bambistew]

Wounding lost - which is the gorilla in the room, potentially has the same impact.

How high do you think wounding loss is? 5% - 25-30 rams a year, more? Its pretty rare to hear of someone shooting a ram and not finding it. I've heard of a couple over the years, but just curious if its a guess or if there has been some sort of effort to quantify it. Also do you really think its has that much of an impact?

 

[wantj43]

How high do you think wounding loss is? 5% - 25-30 rams a year, more? Its pretty rare to hear of someone shooting a ram and not finding it. I've heard of a couple over the years, but just curious if its a guess or if there has been some sort of effort to quantify it. Also do you really think its has that much of an impact?

Scott in the 1951 summary of the Chugach-Talkeetna permit hunt states "The number of rams escaping after being hit amounted to about 5% of the total kill." Obviously this does not necessarily indicate the mortality rate. Other studies involving ungulates report wounding rates from about 15 to 40 percent. Several studies have involved collared animals.

 

[FairbanksFlies]

The good news would be that with no sheep on the mountain, a wounding loss rate of 5% will be a low number. The bad news is that there are no sheep on the mountain.