AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Thunder]

Not to derail this too much from the actual topic, but your language here implies that residents with aircraft are the only ones engaging in this activity. I've witnessed guided outfits do the ol' "oh, just going for a scenic evening flight" or "just heading back into town to pick up supplies (except its every other day)" or "oh, just wanted to sleep in a real bed/grab a beer/etc" It's a little frustrating when you might be on day 9 or 10 of a hunt without spotting a legal ram, and you bump into the guide back at the airstrip and they say with a smirk and a wink "oh, we know where they're at."

So it does go both ways.

Of course it goes both ways but RHWP was created because of the prop 206 banning aerial spotting of sheep during the sheep season. 19c was their playground so that’s why they are focused on that area.

 

[Thunder]

Of course there is some funding for sheep- but the numbers can tell you why the priorities are with moose and caribou.

Take 2019 for example: 5,524 total sheep tags, about half hunted, 840 sheep killed.
Now Moose in 2019 : 49,732 total tags issued, about half hunted, 8,651 moose killed.

So moose is about 10 times more popular than sheep, Now throw in about 12,428 caribou hunters (not counting subsistence) and a huge population crash in most caribou herds the past few years you have a recipe for more funds going to where there is more interest.

And as most Alaskan know of the economic recession in AK and the budget fights the last few years the state is not flush with any funds....

Hahahahahahaha he’s backkkkkkk. Still waiting for you to PM where you’re getting your misinformation from….

 

[adventure907]

We haven't addressed the "second degree of kindred" issue yet....or have we?

I can't quite get such a poorly contrived regulation off my mind......sorry if I'm repeating myself.....Geezers are allowed to do that occasionally

The 2nd degree of kindred regulation and military loophole are often abused. Not only that, the youth hunt is a poorly thought out concept which has caused considerable issues the last few years. It has been abused both by guides and residents.

As as an example to the 2nd degree regulation, a slope worker moves to Soldotna from the states, stays a year or two and moves back to the states. A year or two later, he comes back to Alaska in August, brings his old drivers license and his taxidermist brother (also from the states). He illegally buys a resident hunting license and uses the 2nd degree kindred rule for his brother. They go into the Talkeetnas with the help of a transporter and kill two rams. As if the Talkeetnas didn't have enough problems.

Or, a military dude, let's say from somewhere in the midwest, one of those flatland states, is stationed in Alaska for a few years. Kills a bunch of stuff, good for him. I hope all our honorable service members get to live the Alaska dream while they are stationed here, they deserve it. But, not all are honorable. He gets transferred out of Alaska with no intention of ever returning, yet uses the "military loophole" to keep coming back year after year, usually killing a sheep. He starts bringing his out of state brother with him using the 2nd degree kindred rule, and they both start killing a sheep every year. Every year, year after year, two sheep die because this guy illegally claims intent to return to Alaska. He obviously never intends to return to Alaska, and he never did, but whats a little white lie, right dog?

These are just two examples of the abuse that takes place and it happens all the time. Yet, some guy with an agenda just wants to blame the guides and have a beer with you because the guides are obviously the only problem with the sheep issues we have in this state. It is sad that those false narratives get perpetuated by groups with money and agendas, but they do.

The problems we have in this state right now with sheep hunting are wide ranging and nuanced. Mother nature has not been kind, especially the last few winters. The climate is changing. I am seeing brush in places I have never seen it before and I believe it to be creeping up the mountains in other places, overtaking sheep habitat and feed. The winters are warmer and wetter. Icing events are hell on our sheep. Avalanches and unstable snowpacks. Predators, we have lots and lots of predators. This fall I watched a wolverine chase a group of ewes. He did this because every once in a while, it works. I have a ram on the wall, the only way I knew it was there, was because I saw a golden eagle continually swooping a spot. Lo and behold, there was a 15 year old ram there. I got him before the wolves could that following winter. The wolves, lots and lots of wolves.

There is disease. A few years ago, two to be exact, a friend of mine found a dead ram. It was a beautiful ram. Eight years old with long and heavy horns, a ram that should have been in his prime. He was dead and it later tested positive for movi. I've seen rams coughing, and coughing, and coughing. Pneumonia is hell on sheep, and we have a very limited grasp on what the effects of this disease is having on the sheep in Alaska right now.

There is the stunt shooting. Wounding loss is real, and has only been increased by this fascination and proliferation of long distance plinking at sheep and other animals. It's not hunting, and I am sure I'll catch heat for it, but if you can't stalk a sheep and get within a range that gives that sheep a fair chance to defend himself with his natural defenses, you weren't hunting. A hunter defeats those defenses with skill and cunning, not plinking at obscene distances. I'll save that rant for another time.

There are guide problems. There are unethical guides that rape and pillage, no doubt about it. There are resident problems, groups and cliques of residents with no morals that swarm area's in their cubs like flies on shit. There are transporter problems. Not only do they flood area's with hunters with little concern to the impact on the sheep in those areas, now I hear they are setting up ad hoc fist fights in the middle of air strips.

There is the sub legal take which seems to have increased and is especially elevated this past season. Part of this is probably attributed to the popularity of sheep hunting, the social media influence, and the idea that any legal ram is a trophy. Yes, sheep hunting is hard, but that doesn't mean we should kill every 6, 7, and 8 year old full curl ram just because we can. Once we kill them at 8, they will never be 10, 11, or 12. This has been a problem in the Talkeetnas and other areas of easy access for years. As soon as a ram becomes legal, it gets clipped. Now people are pushing the boundaries more and more. Due to lack of experience, ignorance, and sometimes a cavalier attitude, more illegal sheep are being killed. I've heard that 10 percent of rams sealed this year were illegal. Extrapolate that, how many weren't turned in and worse yet, how many were left on the mountain?

The problems we have with the sheep in this state right now is multi faceted and there is no easy answer. Everybody wants to blame everybody else, with a "solution" that benefits their own interest. I love to hunt sheep. I guide because it allows me to spend more time in the mountains with them than I could with any other job I could have. But, I will put myself out of a job in the interest of the long term viability of the resource I love, and thats exactly what has happened where I hunt.

When will we stop fighting with each other and start taking steps that benefit the one thing that matters, the sheep?

 

[Bambistew]

The 2nd degree of kindred regulation and military loophole are often abused. Not only that, the youth hunt is a poorly thought out concept which has caused considerable issues the last few years. It has been abused both by guides and residents.

As as an example to the 2nd degree regulation, a slope worker moves to Soldotna from the states, stays a year or two and moves back to the states. A year or two later, he comes back to Alaska in August, brings his old drivers license and his taxidermist brother (also from the states). He illegally buys a resident hunting license and uses the 2nd degree kindred rule for his brother. They go into the Talkeetnas with the help of a transporter and kill two rams. As if the Talkeetnas didn't have enough problems.

Or, a military dude, let's say from somewhere in the midwest, one of those flatland states, is stationed in Alaska for a few years. Kills a bunch of stuff, good for him. I hope all our honorable service members get to live the Alaska dream while they are stationed here, they deserve it. But, not all are honorable. He gets transferred out of Alaska with no intention of ever returning, yet uses the "military loophole" to keep coming back year after year, usually killing a sheep. He starts bringing his out of state brother with him using the 2nd degree kindred rule, and they both start killing a sheep every year. Every year, year after year, two sheep die because this guy illegally claims intent to return to Alaska. He obviously never intends to return to Alaska, and he never did, but whats a little white lie, right dog?

These are just two examples of the abuse that takes place and it happens all the time. Yet, some guy with an agenda just wants to blame the guides and have a beer with you because the guides are obviously the only problem with the sheep issues we have in this state. It is sad that those false narratives get perpetuated by groups with money and agendas, but they do.

The problems we have in this state right now with sheep hunting are wide ranging and nuanced. Mother nature has not been kind, especially the last few winters. The climate is changing. I am seeing brush in places I have never seen it before and I believe it to be creeping up the mountains in other places, overtaking sheep habitat and feed. The winters are warmer and wetter. Icing events are hell on our sheep. Avalanches and unstable snowpacks. Predators, we have lots and lots of predators. This fall I watched a wolverine chase a group of ewes. He did this because every once in a while, it works. I have a ram on the wall, the only way I knew it was there, was because I saw a golden eagle continually swooping a spot. Lo and behold, there was a 15 year old ram there. I got him before the wolves could that following winter. The wolves, lots and lots of wolves.

There is disease. A few years ago, two to be exact, a friend of mine found a dead ram. It was a beautiful ram. Eight years old with long and heavy horns, a ram that should have been in his prime. He was dead and it later tested positive for movi. I've seen rams coughing, and coughing, and coughing. Pneumonia is hell on sheep, and we have a very limited grasp on what the effects of this disease is having on the sheep in Alaska right now.

There is the stunt shooting. Wounding loss is real, and has only been increased by this fascination and proliferation of long distance plinking at sheep and other animals. It's not hunting, and I am sure I'll catch heat for it, but if you can't stalk a sheep and get within a range that gives that sheep a fair chance to defend himself with his natural defenses, you weren't hunting. A hunter defeats those defenses with skill and cunning, not plinking at obscene distances. I'll save that rant for another time.

There are guide problems. There are unethical guides that rape and pillage, no doubt about it. There are resident problems, groups and cliques of residents with no morals that swarm area's in their cubs like flies on shit. There are transporter problems. Not only do they flood area's with hunters with little concern to the impact on the sheep in those areas, now I hear they are setting up ad hoc fist fights in the middle of air strips.

There is the sub legal take which seems to have increased and is especially elevated this past season. Part of this is probably attributed to the popularity of sheep hunting, the social media influence, and the idea that any legal ram is a trophy. Yes, sheep hunting is hard, but that doesn't mean we should kill every 6, 7, and 8 year old full curl ram just because we can. Once we kill them at 8, they will never be 10, 11, or 12. This has been a problem in the Talkeetnas and other areas of easy access for years. As soon as a ram becomes legal, it gets clipped. Now people are pushing the boundaries more and more. Due to lack of experience, ignorance, and sometimes a cavalier attitude, more illegal sheep are being killed. I've heard that 10 percent of rams sealed this year were illegal. Extrapolate that, how many weren't turned in and worse yet, how many were left on the mountain?

The problems we have with the sheep in this state right now is multi faceted and there is no easy answer. Everybody wants to blame everybody else, with a "solution" that benefits their own interest. I love to hunt sheep. I guide because it allows me to spend more time in the mountains with them than I could with any other job I could have. But, I will put myself out of a job in the interest of the long term viability of the resource I love, and thats exactly what has happened where I hunt.

When will we stop fighting with each other and start taking steps that benefit the one thing that matters, the sheep?

Great post.

I agree we need to get past the us vs. them, except for dicks with plane that spot animals, not just sheep.

I think there are lot of things that can be done in aggregate, but arguing over a few NRs taking sheep isn't going to solve anything and its sad that the same broken record continues over and over.

What has WSF done for sheep in AK except make sure the market share is maintained by NR?

 

[Thunder]

WSF has a banquet every year that you can wear your Kuiu to, drink beer and play swords. All in the name of conservation.

Don’t forget the governors tag for sheep. They auction that off. It’s really complicated, you wouldn’t understand. Don’t worry they only take a little % of it. It’s for conservation so it must be ok.

 

[adventure907]

So, this is just me spitballing ideas and I am sure there are hurdles and consequences I am not aware of off the top of my head. But, instead of just offering a beer and blaming guides, what if RHWP, the WSF, APHA, SCI and other groups used some of their influence and financial resources to make meaningful changes at a legislative level. Why can't they lobby the legislature to include sheep in the intensive management law? Then those swarms of residents, guides, and other thrill seekers could use their cubs to put a meaningful dent in the predator (wolf) populations. Win win, we take out some predators and all those cub drivers can get some thrills by shooting some wolves from the air. How about we throw some money at concerted trapping efforts? Hell, let's rattle some cages and institute a bounty on wolves at a state level. Sure the feds and the greenies will throw a hissy fit, but as they used to say in old Alaska, we don't give a damn how they do it outside.

Sheep are obviously a delicate resource right now, whereas the moose and caribou seem to be doing better off. By adding sheep to the intensive management law, these organizations could organize predator culls and actually put their financial resources to good use, which in turn would benefit all of these species. I like others here am tired of these organizations raising godly amounts of money and not using if for the actual benefits of the resource. How about WSF use some of their money to study disease issues in sheep? A few years back, fish and game had us collect samples from the sheep we harvested. Why can't WSF throw some money at continuing that so we have multi year data points?

Now, there might be some negatives to adding sheep to the intensive management law that I am not aware of, but the bottom line is we need to start thinking outside the box and coming up with creative ideas.

Or, RHWP's and the like can just keep buying us beers and telling us how bad non residents are, and nothing will ever change.

 

[VernAK]

Further to 907's great rant on the "second degree of kindred", it just appears to me to be a very poorly written regulation.

I can't take my nephew for a sheep or grizzly hunt but I can take my mother-in-law......WTF? My nephew and I share common blood. Is this deeply flawed or is there something I don't understand in this perverted world?

Kindred means you are of the same tribe and how the hell is that enforceable, especially in the field?

I could live with "second degree of KIN" as that seems to make sense as father/son or brother/brother is usually provable by some common documentation.

Licenses for either of the above situations should be applied for months in advance along with supporting documentation.

 

[adventure907]

Great post man. The one thing I'd like to disagree with you on is the youth hunt. In my opinion that's the most important hunt in the state, for all species. If we don't push our youth, hunting will become a thing of the past. Giving a kid the chance to experience sheep hunting and have the entire place all to yourself, that experience is almost religious.

Can it be abused, I suppose. Maybe folks think my family abuses it, that's ok, they're entitled to that opinion. When I see them running, hiking, backpacking, scouting and spending time in the mountains practicing shots like we do 12 months out of the year then I suppose I'll take their opinion a little more seriously.

This is a standing offer to anyone: If you can beat Aubrey round trip on Lazy and have never killed a sheep, I'll help you with your first ram.

This is only a joke. I didn’t kill a sheep this year either.

That meme is gold!

As for the youth hunt, I don't disagree with you that we should be pushing our youth to hunt. They are our future and our hope should be they have the same opportunities and then some that we have had as they grow older.

But, the implementation and execution of the youth hunt for sheep was poorly thought out and poorly executed. Flat out, some guides are abusing it. Some RHWP's are abusing it. I don't think that you or your family are, rather just taking advantage of an opportunity that is there which I would never blame anyone for. But, we didn't need to create more special seasons and special user groups in the sheep world, we had enough issues as is. I think the sheep are in such a delicate state right now, we didn't need to add another layer to the onion. Just my humble opinion.

 

[adventure907]

On top of everything else, we ought to ban RHWCar's too....

Someone please tell those sheep to start climbing....

(just adding a little levity, hope everyone is having a good evening)

 

[Jacques Etcheverry]

Of course it goes both ways but RHWP was created because of the prop 206 banning aerial spotting of sheep during the sheep season. 19c was their playground so that’s why they are focused on that area.

Really? As a founding member and non plane owner I’m not sure you got correct information there.


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[Thunder]

Really? As a founding member and non plane owner I’m not sure you got correct information there.


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They fleeced you. You know the saying about a type of person and their money. Easily parted…

 

[Highcountrybulls]

This thread is really informative when the vitriol is kept in check. We are all after the same end goal, more sheep on the mountain, so why continually berate one another? Rant over.

One topic that has been mentioned but not really discussed in depth is sub-legal harvest. It accounts for a substantial take of sheep that never get the opportunity to grow to maturity. How about requiring a test for sheep hunters to pass to identify legal rams prior to going in the field (similar but hopefully more effective than the bow hunter cert class)? I understand that seasoned sheep hunters don’t need this but with the percentage of sheep hunters who are first timers and the percentage of sub-legal harvest it seems that something more needs to be done.

I’ve lived in AK since 2014 and this year was my first attempt at a sheep. As someone who has not yet killed a sheep, I will consider myself a first timer until I harvest my first ram. I would be very happy to sit through a class and be required to pass a test on legal ram identification. I’ve studied long and hard on judging legal rams and killing a sub-legal ram is still my biggest fear as a sheep hunter. Many will say when in doubt to find another ram, but the fact is that the temptation to make it legal is going to be too much for some and will lead to poor judgment.

The other issue that I believe needs to be seriously addressed addressed is the abuse of the “resident“ hunter status by folks who aren’t truly residents. I know of several instances of this getting abused by folks who own property in AK but do not actually live up here, yet they claim residency. This one may not be as simple to resolve since the people abusing this are clearly not concerned with lying but some evidence needs to be presented to prove residency in my opinion.

Just trying to throw ideas out and hope one will help. There are many issues contributing to the population trends, but this is one I believe could have a positive impact.

 

[Jacques Etcheverry]

They fleeced you. You know the saying about a type of person and their money. Easily parted…

Simple minds, give simple responses.
Your a keyboard warrior.
Best of luck on your future attacks.


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[Thunder]

Simple minds, give simple responses.
You're* a keyboard warrior.
Best of luck on your future attacks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't sell yourself so short. I wouldn't call you simple. Dont beat yourself up over the interent. Speaking of beating best of luck to you and RHWP at the next BOG meeting. You guys need all the luck you can get.

 

[Clarktar]

Spice this up with a few more interior folks and I'm breaking out the popcorn!!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[oenanthe]

Don't sell yourself so short. I wouldn't call you simple. Dont beat yourself up over the interent. Speaking of beating best of luck to you and RHWP at the next BOG meeting. You guys need all the luck you can get.

I wish you would tone it down a little. You make some good points but they tend to be lost in all your personal attacks.

And by the way, if you are going to make fun of misspellings you might want to do a little proofreading.

 

[Thunder]

I wish you would tone it down a little. You make some good points but they tend to be lost in all your personal attacks.

And by the way, if you are going to make fun of misspellings you might want to do a little proofreading.

This is the toned down version Nancy.

 

[Fullcry]

I hate to even say it but Every time you say something intelligent you have to turn around and reck it.
If you want to be taken seriously you have to
Model adult behavior.
“It’s just the internet “isn’t a good excuse for being a jerk.
Be nice

 

[Stid2677]

This thread is really informative when the vitriol is kept in check. We are all after the same end goal, more sheep on the mountain, so why continually berate one another? Rant over.

One topic that has been mentioned but not really discussed in depth is sub-legal harvest. It accounts for a substantial take of sheep that never get the opportunity to grow to maturity. How about requiring a test for sheep hunters to pass to identify legal rams prior to going in the field (similar but hopefully more effective than the bow hunter cert class)? I understand that seasoned sheep hunters don’t need this but with the percentage of sheep hunters who are first timers and the percentage of sub-legal harvest it seems that something more needs to be done.

I’ve lived in AK since 2014 and this year was my first attempt at a sheep. As someone who has not yet killed a sheep, I will consider myself a first timer until I harvest my first ram. I would be very happy to sit through a class and be required to pass a test on legal ram identification. I’ve studied long and hard on judging legal rams and killing a sub-legal ram is still my biggest fear as a sheep hunter. Many will say when in doubt to find another ram, but the fact is that the temptation to make it legal is going to be too much for some and will lead to poor judgment.

The other issue that I believe needs to be seriously addressed addressed is the abuse of the “resident“ hunter status by folks who aren’t truly residents. I know of several instances of this getting abused by folks who own property in AK but do not actually live up here, yet they claim residency. This one may not be as simple to resolve since the people abusing this are clearly not concerned with lying but some evidence needs to be presented to prove residency in my opinion.

Just trying to throw ideas out and hope one will help. There are many issues contributing to the population trends, but this is one I believe could have a positive impact.

If you are near Fairbanks, I've a few heads you could look at and I could point out of few things. If you know of folks breaking the rules,,,, call the Troopers.

Steve

 

[Sourdough]

I'll throw out a "new" question to think about.........For whom is this a problem....????
It seems crystal clear this is "Not" an issue for everyone.

However it is and issue for some. Ask yourself "WHY".

Look and see the distinction.

Yes......I know many will not like the answer. But it is of value to be aware of truth.