A few gel tests

[BLJ]

Thanks for the is.

 

[eoperator]

Would anyone have 5each 6mm 115 nr dtac & 108 berger eh for me to test? I would be happy to pay shipping.

 

[Formidilosus]

I think might help most to interpret what they are seeing. It is not an in-depth explanation. But is a brief overview to help.


These are the major parts of the wound channel we are measuring.


Pen= Total penetration depth

NL= neck length. Depth that bullet penetrates before upset begins.

TC= temporary stretch cavity maximum diameter @

Max TC depth= the depth of maximum temporary cavity

TC Length= the length from “x” inches to “y” inches of the temporary cavity.

There are a couple more things that take some education, primarily the difference between max TC and actual TC that causes permanent damage.


This is a picture that shows the differences in the expected variability of standard 168gr and 175ge SMK’s. It also shows the different parts of the TC (look at middle wound profile) -







These show the basic parts of a wound channel and with what bullets cause them and at what impact velocities:












Now with those parts color outline matched on @eoperator picture of the Berger 140gr EH-






Photo credit to Dr. Gary K Robert’s and Dr. Martin Fackler.

 

[Formidilosus]

Now with those parts color outline matched on @eoperator picture of the Berger 140gr EH-

View attachment 524141

The key things to realize are the differences in wound channels with different types of bullets.

Monos such as Barnes, E-Tip, etc- The yellow is as best you’ll get at high impact velocities (2,600’ish). The red is what you get at below that.


Bonded projectile such as Accubonds, Federal TLR, etc- at very high impact velocities (3,000’ish) you can get the green. At moderate 2,600-2,000fps you get the yellow. At below 2,000fps impact you get the red.


Standard soft points and Partitions- at impact velocities above 2,800’ish FPS you may get some blue but mainly green. From 2,800’ish to 2,200’ish you get somewhere between the green and the yellow. From 2,200’ish to 1,800’ish you get between the yellow and red.


Rapidly fragmenting projectiles such as Bergers, ELD-M, ELD-X, and TMK- at above 2,800-2,600fps impact you can get the blue. From 2,800 to 2,200’ish you get between the blue and the green. From 2,200 to 1,800ish you get between the green and yellow.




At all impact velocities rapidly fragmenting projectiles such as Bergers, ELD-M and X, and TMK’s create measurably larger wounds than bonded, and especially monolithic projectiles.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Why does Sierra not recommend TMK for hunting?

 

[eoperator]

View attachment 524141

Tape measure and paper label are at the the widest visible damage to block.

 

[sndmn11]

@eoperator I'll send you some:
-85gr hammers loaded in 6.5cm or loose
-loose 6.5 120gr etip
-loose 6.5 140gr speer
-140 vld hunt loose or loaded in 6.5cm
-145lrx loose or loaded in 7-08
-168ttsx loose or loaded in 30-06
-175lrx loose or loaded in 300wsm

How much do all your test blocks cost?

 

[Billy Goat]

Why does Sierra not recommend TMK for hunting?

Been covered a good bit, but labeled hunting bullets can't be used in other applications.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Been covered a good bit, but labeled hunting bullets can't be used in other applications.

They have “hunt”listed on their other 22 cal bullets. Maybe it was just a simple accidental omission for the 77 grainers.

 

[wind gypsy]

They have “hunt”listed on their other 22 cal bullets. Maybe it was just a simple accidental omission for the 77 grainers.

I assume he's saying that there can be issues using bullets marketed with certain properties/applictions for military/LEO applications. Federal loads TMKs in their TRU line but it also includes Nosler ballistic tips so I'm not sure on the factual situation.

Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Rifle

Federal Premium offers the most advanced ammunition for all types of rifles. We offer Gold Medal, Tactical rounds, American Eagle, and more.

www.le.vistaoutdoor.com

 

[Bluumoon]

The key things to realize are the differences in wound channels with different types of bullets.

Monos such as Barnes, E-Tip, etc- The yellow is as best you’ll get at high impact velocities (2,600’ish). The red is what you get at below that.


Bonded projectile such as Accubonds, Federal TLR, etc- at very high impact velocities (3,000’ish) you can get the green. At moderate 2,600-2,000fps you get the yellow. At below 2,000fps impact you get the red.


Standard soft points and Partitions- at impact velocities above 2,800’ish FPS you may get some blue but mainly green. From 2,800’ish to 2,200’ish you get somewhere between the green and the yellow. From 2,200’ish to 1,800’ish you get between the yellow and red.


Rapidly fragmenting projectiles such as Bergers, ELD-M, ELD-X, and TMK- at above 2,800-2,600fps impact you can get the blue. From 2,800 to 2,200’ish you get between the blue and the green. From 2,200 to 1,800ish you get between the green and yellow.




At all impact velocities rapidly fragmenting projectiles such as Bergers, ELD-M and X, and TMK’s create measurably larger wounds than bonded, and especially monolithic projectiles.

I believe you have addressed before, but what do Scenars most align with in the given examples?

 

[N2TRKYS]

I assume he's saying that there can be issues using bullets marketed with certain properties/applictions for military/LEO applications. Federal loads TMKs in their TRU line but it also includes Nosler ballistic tips so I'm not sure on the factual situation.

Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Rifle

Federal Premium offers the most advanced ammunition for all types of rifles. We offer Gold Medal, Tactical rounds, American Eagle, and more.

www.le.vistaoutdoor.com

I don’t know what they look at to make those decisions. At some point with the evidence/performance of these projectiles, you would think they would soften on the idea.

 

[eoperator]

I'll send you some:
-85gr hammers loaded in 6.5cm or
-140 vld hunt loose or loaded in 6.5cm
-145lrx loose or loaded in 7-08

How much do all your test blocks cost?

These are a bit out of my wheelhouse but I would do a round of 85hh 140vldh and 145lrx if wanted. It's a pita to ship ammo, loose bullets if you are interested.

I bought 12lb of gelatin from Amazon for $~190 this year and I have been remelting it in a double boiler. Reheating is a bit of a chore but much cheaper than buying new. A complete series, setup-shoot-analyze-cleanup-remelt takes me about 5hrs. It is kind of a mess and stinks up my garage for several days. If you are planning to do this yourself the gelatin has to be kept cool so it does not mold but also not freeze.

 

[sndmn11]

These are a bit out of my wheelhouse but I would do a round of 85hh 140vldh and 145lrx if wanted. It's a pita to ship ammo, loose bullets if you are interested.

I bought 12lb of gelatin from Amazon for $~190 this year and I have been remelting it in a double boiler. Reheating is a bit of a chore but much cheaper than buying new. A complete series, setup-shoot-analyze-cleanup-remelt takes me about 5hrs. It is kind of a mess and stinks up my garage for several days. If you are planning to do this yourself the gelatin has to be kept cool so it does not mold but also not freeze.

Yeah, shoot me a PM.

@Ucsdryder or @TheViking you have anything you want to send too?

 

[Formidilosus]

and I have been remelting it in a double boiler. Reheating is a bit of a chore but much cheaper than buying new. A complete series, setup-shoot-analyze-cleanup-remelt takes me about 5hrs. It is kind of a mess and stinks up my garage for several days. If you are planning to do this yourself the gelatin has to be kept cool so it does not mold but also not freeze.

Reusing organic gelatin totally removes it from comparison. It has been tested extensively. It is not consistent, and produces erratic and variable behavior.

 

[eoperator]

Well I geuss I learned something today ^.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Well I geuss I learned something today ^.

It might not be perfect but it’s pretty interesting and fun to see. I can send some 225 eldm and 180 eldm, bullets only. Let me know if you’re interested and how many you need.

 

[Formidilosus]

It might not be perfect but it’s pretty interesting and fun to see. I can send some 225 eldm and 180 eldm, bullets only. Let me know if you’re interested and how many you need.

The issue is that reusing gel gives a false indication of performance. The variability between blocks means that one bullet might upset similar to normal, and another might not at all.

 

[Formidilosus]

It may look like I am being critical of eoperator’s work here- I am not. It is fantastic that anyone is trying to do this. The issue is that if it is not done correctly, the results are not indicative and cause more issues than not doing it.

Done correctly, 10% organic ballistics gel is by far the best medium to compare and test bullets that also correlates with live tissue. The issue is that it must be mixed, cooled, stored correctly, and calibrated to be of any use. The smallest error can and will have significant consequences in bullet performance.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It might not be perfect but it’s pretty interesting and fun to see. I can send some 225 eldm and 180 eldm, bullets only. Let me know if you’re interested and how many you need.

Bullets in the mail. Can’t wait to see what you come up with!