6mm and .223/5.56 ILLEGAL for big game in Alaska!

[atmat]

You tell a guy who hunts brown bears professionally he’s ignorant on what it takes to kill them.

Yes, if he’s only ever tried one thing — when others are easily demonstrating that another thing works.

 

[Formidilosus]

You tell a guy who hunts brown bears professionally he’s ignorant on what it takes to kill them because you read it on the internet.

Usually you tend to logical thinking, here you have deep dived into fallacies. Why?

 

[FAAFO]

The first proposal will die, the 2nd has legs. Who’s going to the BOG meeting? I’ll be there to make sure none of the archery only proposals pass.

Sorry Paul. But archery hunters have more hunts than rifle hunters in AK.

 

[SDHNTR]

Usually you tend to logical thinking, here you have deep dived into fallacies. Why?

1. I simply think there are better tools for the job on the biggest of big, and possibly dangerous, game. It’s my opinion, you don’t have to like it. We aren’t talking about deer here, which would change the conversation.

2. Pragmatically speaking, if I am going brown bear hunting in AK, I must hire a guide. Right or wrong, I’m not gonna piss that guy off by telling him he’s wrong. My life may depend on it. And I’d be willing to bet 100% of them would say no .223.

3. Aside from all that, and perhaps most importantly, having hunted AK many times (including for brown bear) I understand the underlying and unwritten intent of what this proposal is trying to do. Regardless of how many thousands of an inch of caliber we are talking about, there’a problem with native hunting tactics in a lot of AK, and while this may not be the perfect way to address it, it’s a step.

 

[Formidilosus]

1. I simply think there are better tools for the job on the biggest of big, and possibly dangerous, game. It’s my opinion, you don’t have to like it. We aren’t talking about deer here, which would change the conversation.

Logic has nothing to do with “I like, I think, I feel”.
You shoot monos. Logically that should factor that into your belief.

This wasn’t created by a mono-







There is no broadhead that remotely comes close to what any decent bullet does from a 223.

2. Pragmatically speaking, if I am going brown bear hunting in AK, I must hire a guide. Right or wrong, I’m not gonna piss that guy off by telling him he’s wrong. My life may depend on it. And I’d be willing to bet 100% of them would say no .223.

You’d be wrong on that.

3. Aside from all that, and perhaps most importantly, having hunted AK many times (including for brown bear) I understand the underlying and unwritten intent of what this proposal is trying to do. Regardless of how many thousands of an inch of caliber we are talking about, there’a problem with native hunting tactics in a lot of AK, and while this may not be the perfect way to address it, it’s a step.

I know why it’s written, and no it won’t address it at all. First- 55gr FMJ in a moose is absolutely destroying sufficient tissue to kill reliably and quickly- much more than a broadhead. Second, making certain calibers illegal wont change a single thing for people that don’t zero their rifles and shoot at anything that moves.
Again- normally you are logical and critical in thinking which is why it is notable that you aren’t about this.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

Yes but at this point how do you regulate the people without regulating the tool? Wanton waste is already a problem and highly illegal. Some people are idiots and ruin it for the rest of us but what else could you do besides taking away the means for them to waste meat?

Better awareness. Making examples of stupidity. I really think bringing this proposal forward to bring the discussion mainstream will be part of the solution.

 

[omicron1792]

You tell a guy who hunts brown bears professionally he’s ignorant on what it takes to kill them because you read it on the internet.

remember, you’re the one that threw out a theoretical conversation with one because you “think” you would know what he says.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. But anyone that would compare an arrow to any reasonable rifle cartridge would be ignorant, IMO of course.

 

[david2duck]

These conversations often come down to morals/ethics. I can’t push mine on you and vice versa. Both a bow and a small caliber rifle kill efficiently if used correctly.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

Shooter accuracy has never been so important than it is today. Encouraging that skill is the way. Qualify with reasonable marksmanship, gain access to better hunting opportunities. Rural and native communities still intend to highly regard using the lands and wildlife respectfully. Give them and everyone an avenue to show it.

Once accuracy becomes prioritized again, appropriate cartridge size will be reconciled.

 

[SDHNTR]

I know why it’s written, and no it won’t address it at all. First- 55gr FMJ in a moose is absolutely destroying sufficient tissue to kill reliably and quickly- much more than a broadhead. Second, making certain calibers illegal wont change a single thing for people that don’t zero their rifles and shoot at anything that moves.
Again- normally you are logical and critical in thinking which is why it is notable that you aren’t about this.

A 55gr fmj .223” hole slipping between the ribs and through the lungs does more damage and kills as fast as a 1.125” 3 or 4 blade broadhead?

 

[Formidilosus]

A 55gr fmj .223” hole slipping between the ribs and through the lungs does more damage and kills as fast as a 1.125” 3 or 4 blade broadhead?

Yes. Standard 55gr FMJ tumbles and above 2,500’ish FPS impact, breaks at the cannelure and fragments.







Significantly better choice than 308 win FMJ-





Of all the crappy bullets that people would shoot- 55gr and even 62gr 5.56mm FMJ are the best, of the “bad” options.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Yes. Standard 55gr FMJ tumbles and above 2,500’ish FPS impact, breaks at the cannelure and fragments.

View attachment 762316

View attachment 762317



Significantly better choice than 308 win FMJ-

View attachment 762318



Of all the crappy bullets that people would shoot- 55gr and even 62gr 5.56mm FMJ are the best, of the “bad” options.

View attachment 762319

Why’d you have to go and bring in data to a good discussion?

 

[Yaremkiv]

Well I'm learning a lot.

 

[Billogna]

After umpteen of these threads I've come to this conclusion. "There are NONE so blind as those who WILL NOT see." ~ Someone Wiser Than Me

It's the same debate ad nauseum. After SEVERAL HUNDRED examples of how effective good bullets are, no matter WHAT they were fired from, there are still those who will continue to deny what is right in front of them. The proponents of the heavy for caliber, good bullets have done nothing but try to bring data and good info to this board about what works and why. But crapping on someone else's success just because it's not how you would have done it is just plain dumb. I'm gonna get my ball and get off your lawn now.

As far as the "ethics" of the tribal communities -We are proposing that they update their hunting methods to reflect a more modern, efficient, and ethical way of killing game, yet all the while being proponents for killing animals with sticks, strings and rocks?? I just wanna be clear here. There are so many animals lost to bow hunting there are literally businesses for dogs and drones to find them.

 

[180ls1]

After umpteen of these threads I've come to this conclusion. "There are NONE so blind as those who WILL NOT see." ~ Someone Wiser Than Me

It's the same debate ad nauseum. After SEVERAL HUNDRED examples of how effective good bullets are, no matter WHAT they were fired from, there are still those who will continue to deny what is right in front of them. The proponents of the heavy for caliber, good bullets have done nothing but try to bring data and good info to this board about what works and why. But crapping on someone else's success just because it's not how you would have done it is just plain dumb. I'm gonna get my ball and get off your lawn now.

As far as the "ethics" of the tribal communities -We are proposing that they update their hunting methods to reflect a more modern, efficient, and ethical way of killing game, yet all the while being proponents for killing animals with sticks, strings and rocks?? I just wanna be clear here. There are so many animals lost to bow hunting there are literally businesses for dogs and drones to find them.

I hunted one of the most popular ranches in the USA. I'd rather it remain unknown but their guide told me the loss on archery hunts is around 50%. This is not on a trophy species but that number shocked me.

 

[Thegman]

Yes. Standard 55gr FMJ tumbles and above 2,500’ish FPS impact, breaks at the cannelure and fragments.

View attachment 762316

View attachment 762317



Significantly better choice than 308 win FMJ-

View attachment 762318



Of all the crappy bullets that people would shoot- 55gr and even 62gr 5.56mm FMJ are the best, of the “bad” options.

View attachment 762319

Good points, which is why I said -if- there's a problem. I've never shot anything with a 55FMJ or a 62FMJ. They may work well on moose(???) IDK. If I said they weren't adequate, I'd just be guessing.

Again, -if- there's a problem it's illustrated by william schmaltz's observations.

" It’s nearly all village subsistence users where I’m at. The sequence probably 8/10 times is you hear a boat, they pull off throttle (sometimes not), and within seconds you hear shooting. Almost always it’s about ten shots or more. And you hear this a half dozen times a day. All that to say, based on my annual observations, the comment quoted above is correct."

That's a method issue,
not a cartridge issue necessarily.

 

[Formidilosus]

Good points, which is why I said -if- there's a problem. I've never shot anything with a 55FMJ of 62FMJ. They may work well on moose(???) IDK. If I said they weren't adequate, I'd just be guessing.

Again, -if- there's a problem it's illustrated by william schmaltz's observations. A method issue,
not a cartridge issue necessarily. https://rokslide.com/forums/members/william-schmaltz.21451/

Absolutely.

In no way am I saying FMJ 5.56mm or any FMJ’s are the answer, just that 55gr 223 FMJ isn’t why moose are being wounded and lost. Not even remotely close, and it can stated with absolute fact that the crap cheap ammo from 7.62x39 and 308win is demonstrably worse in killing.

 

[Thegman]

Absolutely.

In no way am I saying FMJ 5.56mm or any FMJ’s are the answer, just that 55gr 223 FMJ isn’t why moose are being wounded and lost. Not even remotely close, and it can stated with absolute fact that the crap cheap ammo from 7.62x39 and 308win is demonstrably worse in killing.

And who knows, but maybe that's one of their reasons from moving to ARs from AKs, IDK, but I used to hear the same kind of stories with AKs as the center of the story instead of ARs.

I imagine if something like this passed, a lot of those ancient, beat up, crappy AKs would come back out of the closets and the rest of the story would remain unchanged.

 

[BLJ]

@Formidilosus. What’s the info on the pictures in post #85? Animal, bullet, impact velocity, entry/exit? Thanks.

 

[FAAFO]

I hunted one of the most popular ranches in the USA. I'd rather it remain unknown but their guide told me the loss on archery hunts is around 50%. This is not on a trophy species but that number shocked me.

Years ago a well respected master guide in AK told me he figured guided brown bear wounding loss was 50%. At the time I thought that was likely high. But years later based off experience I would now agree with him.

I likely wouldn’t let a client use a .223 on brown bear. But a wounded bear counts so hell maybe I would. bear maybe lives and I don’t have to skin one? Win win