6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....

[Dave0317]

I of course can’t say with certainty, however- the evidence presented does not allow any other conclusion.

That was actually my first thought when I saw the pic, before reading the post. I was thinking “wow, these guys are dedicated to experimenting with bullets…he did some experimenting on a fresh carcass”

Gotta be more to the story.

 

[Formidilosus]

That was actually my first thought when I saw the pic, before reading the post. I was thinking “wow, these guys are dedicated to experimenting with bullets…he did some experimenting on a fresh carcass”

Gotta be more to the story.

I’ve watched people do it when I was younger- people can be weird about deer.

 

[Jake Larsen]

That was actually my first thought when I saw the pic, before reading the post. I was thinking “wow, these guys are dedicated to experimenting with bullets…he did some experimenting on a fresh carcass”

Gotta be more to the story.

If that’s what happened, his shot placement sucked No wonder he had to “kill” an already dead deer. Allegedly. All around weird situation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigbuckdj]

Gotta be more to the story.

Not anymore that I have.

All the outcomes seem so unlikely in my brain. Definitely weird.
Here I thought I had the first documented case of a 6.5 creedmoor bullet bouncing off a deer and I come out feeling like my good friend may be a closet psycopath. Thanks guys.

 

[TripleJ]

Bought my 1st Tikka (T3X light 6.5 cm) last December and got it set up with UM rings and a tenmile scope. My dad was the 1st to notch a tag with it last weekend on this little blacktail. Factory 147 eldm at 165 yds = a very efficient no drama DRT.

 

[Solm]

I've got an AR 10 in both 6.5cm and in .260, I built the creed before complete rifles were available and the only real difference is ammo availability. Both are extremely accurate rifles but neither will do anything the other won't do just as well.
Personally if I were buying a new rifle today I'd go with the creed for 2 reasons. First is the obvious ammo availability that the creed has, the other is that most of the .260s have to slow of a twist rate for what little quality ammo is available.

 

[bpitcher]

6.5 PRC, 156gr EOL

2841 MV, 2530 impact.

Cow Elk - 300 yards, quartering away, slightly uphill.

Bullet entered through the ribs, got a lung, split the heart and destroyed the far shoulder. Lots of bone fragments. Recovered some small pieces of jacket, but was unable to find the bullet.

 

[SC HUNTER]

I shot a smallish doe this morning, around 100 pounds, at 230 yards. 6.5 creedmoor suppressed using a 143 grain ELD-X and again it was devastating. I tried to drop her in the road so I could drive to her but she ran about 40 yards. Good blood trail, lungs and heart were jelly, caliber size entrance hole with a half dollar size exit. First picture is where I was watching a power line from and she was on the right side at 230's via rangefinder.

 

[Dtharvester]

Finally got around to testing the 6.5 superlite barrel on my T3. 140 ELDMs shot 5 shots at about .75", but the 130 TMKs were lights out with 5 under .5". I still want to load up 10 of each and shoot a larger group sample size, but is there any reason to prioritize the 140 eld over the 130 TMK? Primary use is whitetail to 200 and deer/elk out to my self imposed max of 500.

As I understand it you won't be able to tell much/if any difference. I shot 143s for elk last year, the 130 TMK groups better for me and will be the go to for current barrel. Rumor is TMKs are a little more forgiving around 1800fps bottom limit.

Gotta love this place. I knew if I dug around I could find an(other) answer to my 6.5cm bullet question.
I see great grouping on both the 130gr and the 140gr, but the 130 is heading down range 200fps faster, so now I’m trying to convince myself this could be my bullet for next year’s “Big Bull” tag.
All I need to get past now is the nagging desire to shoot a bigger caliber, cuz I’ve grown up around, and will be hunting with “big animal = 30cal” guys next fall.
I’m convinced that I’ve dropped some 300wm related bad habits after moving to the 6.5, and really feel like I’m focusing more on where the bullets going, rather than what I’ll need to do to recover from recoil and get back in the scope.
300wm recoil never bothered me, and I could go through a couple of boxes at the range ($$), but there’s no denying physics

If only mainstream thought was moving more in this direction…that’s right…peer pressure has me questioning the facts in front of my face.

 

[woods89]

Gotta love this place. I knew if I dug around I could find an(other) answer to my 6.5cm bullet question.
I see great grouping on both the 130gr and the 140gr, but the 130 is heading down range 200fps faster, so now I’m trying to convince myself this could be my bullet for next year’s “Big Bull” tag.
All I need to get past now is the nagging desire to shoot a bigger caliber, cuz I’ve grown up around, and will be hunting with “big animal = 30cal” guys next fall.
I’m convinced that I’ve dropped some 300wm related bad habits after moving to the 6.5, and really feel like I’m focusing more on where the bullets going, rather than what I’ll need to do to recover from recoil and get back in the scope.
300wm recoil never bothered me, and I could go through a couple of boxes at the range ($$), but there’s no denying physics

If only mainstream thought was moving more in this direction…that’s right…peer pressure has me questioning the facts in front of my face.

I'm just an Internet guy, and I have some experience but not what I'd consider a lot. Nothing I say carries much authority. With that out of the way.......

I have now shot enough 6.5 TMK into enough whitetails that I'm not worried about terminal effects. I have yet to catch one in a whitetail, which to me says that generally that bullet will catch both lungs on an elk, even at angles. Wound size is significant enough that no elk with that kind of hole in both lungs is going far.

One thing that seems to be forgotten at times in Forms testing is that the delta between how well you shoot between recoil levels widens significantly when stress is introduced. I have never had a shot opportunity on an elk that didn't have a stress element to it, whether speed, cold, breathing hard, awkward positions,etc. So I suppose you could also ask the question like this " Can I afford the deterioration in my shooting that more recoil brings in stressful shot opportunities" just like you can ask " Can I afford the perceived lack of terminal performance that I get with less recoil" ( emphasis on perceived, lol).

This is really getting driven home for me with my 223 on whitetails. I've now shot 5 deer with it using 69gr TMK. Other than 1 rushed follow-up shot on a deer that was 1/2 a second from tipping over, every one of those shots has basically went exactly to my POA, to a level I haven't seen in the past. I'm realizing that in the field, while my 10 lb 6.5 doesn't bother me at all, I still shoot that 223 to a level that makes me willing to often trade possibly not getting an exit for the ability to simply hit POA incredibly consistently. And when I do that the deer is usually laying 30 yds away, even if I don't get a exit and blood trails are less impressive.

All that to say, I think we undersell how much better we shoot away from the range with less recoil, and that should definitely factor into this discussion. I still love my 6.5 and carry it fairly frequently, and will be carrying it for elk 100%, but I can begin to see the data trend for myself.

 

[Dtharvester]

I'm just an Internet guy, and I have some experience but not what I'd consider a lot. Nothing I say carries much authority. With that out of the way.......

I have now shot enough 6.5 TMK into enough whitetails that I'm not worried about terminal effects. I have yet to catch one in a whitetail, which to me says that generally that bullet will catch both lungs on an elk, even at angles. Wound size is significant enough that no elk with that kind of hole in both lungs is going far.

One thing that seems to be forgotten at times in Forms testing is that the delta between how well you shoot between recoil levels widens significantly when stress is introduced. I have never had a shot opportunity on an elk that didn't have a stress element to it, whether speed, cold, breathing hard, awkward positions,etc. So I suppose you could also ask the question like this " Can I afford the deterioration in my shooting that more recoil brings in stressful shot opportunities" just like you can ask " Can I afford the perceived lack of terminal performance that I get with less recoil" ( emphasis on perceived, lol).

This is really getting driven home for me with my 223 on whitetails. I've now shot 5 deer with it using 69gr TMK. Other than 1 rushed follow-up shot on a deer that was 1/2 a second from tipping over, every one of those shots has basically went exactly to my POA, to a level I haven't seen in the past. I'm realizing that in the field, while my 10 lb 6.5 doesn't bother me at all, I still shoot that 223 to a level that makes me willing to often trade possibly not getting an exit for the ability to simply hit POA incredibly consistently. And when I do that the deer is usually laying 30 yds away, even if I don't get a exit and blood trails are less impressive.

All that to say, I think we undersell how much better we shoot away from the range with less recoil, and that should definitely factor into this discussion. I still love my 6.5 and carry it fairly frequently, and will be carrying it for elk 100%, but I can begin to see the data trend for myself.

I know I was shooting in the “pocket” of my shoulder most of my life, and took up shooting over my collar bone with the 6.5, medial position, with an adjusted jaw/cheek weld, and I know that’s helped my shooting overall.

I’m pretty sure I could develop more 300wm related bad habits if I decided to use the same technique with the 300 without a big brake on it.

As for that 7 SAUM build though…

 

[pathnz]

One thing that seems to be forgotten at times in Forms testing is that the delta between how well you shoot between recoil levels widens significantly when stress is introduced

Is there any hard data on this? I am interested to see it.

 

[woods89]

Is there any hard data on this? I am interested to see it.

I have no links, just something that has been discussed on the Exo podcast he was on, as well as coming up occasionally on here over the years.

It has certainly played out that way in my experience, which is not necessarily complete.

 

[pathnz]

Yeah I've seen it talked about on here a lot. I'm just fascinated to see the data if it exists.

It matches my experience. Of course experience is not data.

 

[ztc92]

I'm just an Internet guy, and I have some experience but not what I'd consider a lot. Nothing I say carries much authority. With that out of the way.......

I have now shot enough 6.5 TMK into enough whitetails that I'm not worried about terminal effects. I have yet to catch one in a whitetail, which to me says that generally that bullet will catch both lungs on an elk, even at angles. Wound size is significant enough that no elk with that kind of hole in both lungs is going far.

One thing that seems to be forgotten at times in Forms testing is that the delta between how well you shoot between recoil levels widens significantly when stress is introduced. I have never had a shot opportunity on an elk that didn't have a stress element to it, whether speed, cold, breathing hard, awkward positions,etc. So I suppose you could also ask the question like this " Can I afford the deterioration in my shooting that more recoil brings in stressful shot opportunities" just like you can ask " Can I afford the perceived lack of terminal performance that I get with less recoil" ( emphasis on perceived, lol).

This is really getting driven home for me with my 223 on whitetails. I've now shot 5 deer with it using 69gr TMK. Other than 1 rushed follow-up shot on a deer that was 1/2 a second from tipping over, every one of those shots has basically went exactly to my POA, to a level I haven't seen in the past. I'm realizing that in the field, while my 10 lb 6.5 doesn't bother me at all, I still shoot that 223 to a level that makes me willing to often trade possibly not getting an exit for the ability to simply hit POA incredibly consistently. And when I do that the deer is usually laying 30 yds away, even if I don't get a exit and blood trails are less impressive.

All that to say, I think we undersell how much better we shoot away from the range with less recoil, and that should definitely factor into this discussion. I still love my 6.5 and carry it fairly frequently, and will be carrying it for elk 100%, but I can begin to see the data trend for myself.

This. 100%. If I’m shooting off a bench to get a good zero or shooting prone with front/rear rest and no pressure, I shoot near identical groups with my 6.5 and my .223. I could even convince myself the 6.5 actually has smaller groups as the system with my current load is just more inherently accurate than my .223 (like 1.25 MOA vs 1.5 MOA FWIW).

As soon as I do the hunting rifle drill, the wheels start to fall off with the 6.5. I almost always score 10-13 / 20 with my .223 but rarely get double digits with my 6.5. It honestly feels like the bullets just go where I’m aiming easier and more consistently with the .223, even though both rifles are identical except for the scope.

I think the unconscious part of our brain struggles a lot more with recoil than we actually perceive and that only becomes more obvious with stress or compromised shooting positions.

 

[woods89]

This. 100%. If I’m shooting off a bench to get a good zero or shooting prone with front/rear rest and no pressure, I shoot near identical groups with my 6.5 and my .223. I could even convince myself the 6.5 actually has smaller groups as the system with my current load is just more inherently accurate than my .223 (like 1.25 MOA vs 1.5 MOA FWIW).

As soon as I do the hunting rifle drill, the wheels start to fall off with the 6.5. I almost always score 10-13 / 20 with my .223 but rarely get double digits with my 6.5. It honestly feels like the bullets just go where I’m aiming easier and more consistently with the .223, even though both rifles are identical except for the scope.

I think the unconscious part of our brain struggles a lot more with recoil than we actually perceive and that only becomes more obvious with stress or compromised shooting positions.

Bingo. With odd shooting positions and/or speed, it's like those little bullets are laser guided.

 

[Unckebob]

I'm just an Internet guy, and I have some experience but not what I'd consider a lot. Nothing I say carries much authority. With that out of the way.......

I have now shot enough 6.5 TMK into enough whitetails that I'm not worried about terminal effects. I have yet to catch one in a whitetail, which to me says that generally that bullet will catch both lungs on an elk, even at angles. Wound size is significant enough that no elk with that kind of hole in both lungs is going far.

One thing that seems to be forgotten at times in Forms testing is that the delta between how well you shoot between recoil levels widens significantly when stress is introduced. I have never had a shot opportunity on an elk that didn't have a stress element to it, whether speed, cold, breathing hard, awkward positions,etc. So I suppose you could also ask the question like this " Can I afford the deterioration in my shooting that more recoil brings in stressful shot opportunities" just like you can ask " Can I afford the perceived lack of terminal performance that I get with less recoil" ( emphasis on perceived, lol).

This is really getting driven home for me with my 223 on whitetails. I've now shot 5 deer with it using 69gr TMK. Other than 1 rushed follow-up shot on a deer that was 1/2 a second from tipping over, every one of those shots has basically went exactly to my POA, to a level I haven't seen in the past. I'm realizing that in the field, while my 10 lb 6.5 doesn't bother me at all, I still shoot that 223 to a level that makes me willing to often trade possibly not getting an exit for the ability to simply hit POA incredibly consistently. And when I do that the deer is usually laying 30 yds away, even if I don't get a exit and blood trails are less impressive.

All that to say, I think we undersell how much better we shoot away from the range with less recoil, and that should definitely factor into this discussion. I still love my 6.5 and carry it fairly frequently, and will be carrying it for elk 100%, but I can begin to see the data trend for myself.

I get your point, but most adults aren't going to get beat up by a 6.5CM enough to make a shot stressful. Without a can or brake, the 6.5CM can be shot all day accurately. With a can on it and in a typical deer rifle, a 6.5CM is a real pussy cat.

For a little recoil, we get roughly two times the amount of lead material spreading out into the animal. Frankly, shooting my 6.5CM at deer was easy. I used the 143g Eldx and the 140g TGK to equal effect - I never had to take a follow up shot.

Please understand, I don't consider myself the world's greatest shooter (I am not).

Btw - bought a 223 Tikka for training recently. Because I like to test things, I am going to test it on deer next year. I would use it this year, but have a 280AI I built I want to blood.

 

[woods89]

I get your point, but most adults aren't going to get beat up by a 6.5CM enough to make a shot stressful. Without a can or brake, the 6.5CM can be shot all day accurately. With a can on it and in a typical deer rifle, a 6.5CM is a real pussy cat.

For a little recoil, we get roughly two times the amount of lead material spending out into the animal. Frankly, shooting my 6.5CM at deer was easy. I used the 143g Eldx and the 140g TGK to equal effect - I never had to take a follow up shot,

Please understand, I don't consider myself the world's greatest shooter (I am not).

Btw - bought a 223 Tikka for training recently. Because I like to test things, I am going to test it on deer next year. I would use it this year, but have a 280AI I built I want to blood.

I'll be very interested your thoughts after killing a few deer with your 223.

I thought the same way until I used mine a couple years. The difference is most stark in quick opportunities or odd shooting positions.

 

[jcaud]

Shot a muley today at around 100 yards with 140 gr ELDM. Didn’t get pics but found the bullet under the skin, and internals were sloshing around. Them little bullets do some damage!

 

[Bluumoon]

Gotta love this place. I knew if I dug around I could find an(other) answer to my 6.5cm bullet question.
I see great grouping on both the 130gr and the 140gr, but the 130 is heading down range 200fps faster, so now I’m trying to convince myself this could be my bullet for next year’s “Big Bull” tag.
All I need to get past now is the nagging desire to shoot a bigger caliber, cuz I’ve grown up around, and will be hunting with “big animal = 30cal” guys next fall.
I’m convinced that I’ve dropped some 300wm related bad habits after moving to the 6.5, and really feel like I’m focusing more on where the bullets going, rather than what I’ll need to do to recover from recoil and get back in the scope.
300wm recoil never bothered me, and I could go through a couple of boxes at the range ($$), but there’s no denying physics

If only mainstream thought was moving more in this direction…that’s right…peer pressure has me questioning the facts in front of my face.

130 gr TMK did the job for me this year on my CO OTC bull. 1686fps at impact. First shot through front leg/chest/off side leg, second miss, third neck/spine shot, zero total yards travelled. To my untrained eye wound cavities were about 1.5" on off sides.