30-30 Copper ammo (Barnes) penciled through Whitetail Buck this morning...thoughts?

[sniper20]

I tried Barnes TSX in a 6.5 Creedmoor once... once. Shot a smaller buck about 120yds out, perfect behind the shoulder shot. Zero expansion, bullet was recovered and it was still 100% intact. The petals on the nose were actually bent inward, making it more of a FMJ.

Barnes, along with every other "traditional" mono are built great, but need more velocity for expansion. The 30-30 just isn't the best cartridge to offer that. I know Maker and supposedly Hornady Mono offers better expansion at lower velocity, but I haven't used those. I have used Cavity Back Bullets for 6.5 Grendel and they give really good expansion at lower velocity, but they are too long to load into 30-30 (I tried with some 300BO bullets, not a fun jam to try and clear...)

If you are REQUIRED to use Mono, I would say there might be better options as Barnes hasn't/won't change their stuff. But the 30-30 was designed as a black powder cartridge, thus using soft lead and lower velocity. I shoot factory Winchester stuff in mine, but don't use the 30-30 much.

All that being said, I recovered my deer to see the bullet didn't perform. So doesn't that mean it DID perform???

Everyone expects bullets to make wound channels like they see in gel tests. I do homemade gel testing, and the bullets perform "perfect" as they show on the boxes they come in. However, bullets I have recovered from animals rarely look the same... Way too many variables to say the "perfect" bullet for X situation.

If our forefathers used FMJ surplus ammo from the wars in 30-06 ammo, harvested more deer than we do today... obviously shot placement is more important than expansion. Just my .02

 

[Ditt44]

First season using 145 LRX bullets in a Savage 110 7mm-08. @2800 FPS MV

Deer 1: Whitetail doe, 45 yards, quartering to me. Hit was middle-third behind the right shoulder, exit was about the last rib on the left. Significant blood splatter on the ground behind her. Broke two ribs, no bullet recovery. The doe ran about 50 yards into some of the most nasty blackberry-green briar-Russian olive crap you want to deal with. I crawled hands and knees most of the way to find her; then reversed course by the same method dragging her by the hind legs. I'd pull her to me, then moved back two feet and repeat. I could not even gut her in that mess until I dragged her back to essentially the same spot I hit her. Miserable. Bullet performed great. Double lung, diaphragm, unfortunately nicked the stomach. Not massive jelly of the lungs but dead deer. Blood shot was minimal but blood did pool badly under the hide and connective tissues but did wash out pretty well.

Deer 2: Whitetail doe, 135 yards. Slight angle away. Hit was middle-third behind left shoulder, exit was just behind the right shoulder. Barely any hair or blood at the spot she was standing. Immediate thought was '$hit, I grazed her belly' but the shot felt good... She leaped about ten yards and vanished is previously said thick stuff. Knowing where they move in that area, I had a fair idea of how to search. Eventually found specs of blood...now getting dark... manged to track her about 40 yards more and finally large swaths of blood where she fell. I knew she was dead somewhere ahead. Went to the house, changed, got my tractor/bucket and went back with the wife. Found her about 15 yards further down a trail piled up next to huge boulder. Bullet hole in missed a rib, exit took out a rib. Steam was rising from her when I found her. While not a major blow out of tissue on the exit side, the higher/mid-body hit needed time to fill the chest cavity. Once the blood hit that hole, it was everywhere. Same tissue damage, same blood pooling but NOT blood shot meat/very minimal at the shoulders.

Lesson learned: per many other comments on copper bullets, hit them low or you may have trailing issues. But, in all honesty, had those two shots been Core-Lokts I doubt I would have found either deer any sooner or with better blood trails. I should have aimed a few inches lower, the gun shoots these bullets sub-1/2 inch at 100 yards so there is no error unless it is me.

 

[35WhelenAI]

8 pt Whitetail, 180 or so yards, quartering away, 200 TTSX from 35 Whelen AI, 2940 MV. Made a 30 to 40 yd side hill dash and went down in a tumbling heap. Both lungs were done for. Pics of hanging, entry, exit (tattered meat trimmed from around exit, very little wasted meat). Animals react differently. Not a lack of expansion on this buck, it's just how hunting goes.

 

[Blacktailer]

Penciled through? No. You have to realize the difference in performance with monos. They expand to lesser diameter than C&C bullets and cut through instead of punching through the game (Think broadhead as opposed to baseball bat). This means unless you hit CNS or bone, there is less "shock" to the animal so forget behind the shoulder shots (I once shot a blacktail with a 235gr Barnes in the classic behind the shoulder shot with my 375H&H and he ran about 100 yards although leaving behind a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. They don't leave large exit holes like C&C bullets do but if you want DRT shoot for the neck or high shoulder.
Good on you for using monos for your kid's sake.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I tried Barnes TSX in a 6.5 Creedmoor once... once. Shot a smaller buck about 120yds out, perfect behind the shoulder shot. Zero expansion, bullet was recovered and it was still 100% intact. The petals on the nose were actually bent inward, making it more of a FMJ.

Barnes, along with every other "traditional" mono are built great, but need more velocity for expansion. The 30-30 just isn't the best cartridge to offer that. I know Maker and supposedly Hornady Mono offers better expansion at lower velocity, but I haven't used those. I have used Cavity Back Bullets for 6.5 Grendel and they give really good expansion at lower velocity, but they are too long to load into 30-30 (I tried with some 300BO bullets, not a fun jam to try and clear...)

If you are REQUIRED to use Mono, I would say there might be better options as Barnes hasn't/won't change their stuff. But the 30-30 was designed as a black powder cartridge, thus using soft lead and lower velocity. I shoot factory Winchester stuff in mine, but don't use the 30-30 much.

All that being said, I recovered my deer to see the bullet didn't perform. So doesn't that mean it DID perform???

Everyone expects bullets to make wound channels like they see in gel tests. I do homemade gel testing, and the bullets perform "perfect" as they show on the boxes they come in. However, bullets I have recovered from animals rarely look the same... Way too many variables to say the "perfect" bullet for X situation.

If our forefathers used FMJ surplus ammo from the wars in 30-06 ammo, harvested more deer than we do today... obviously shot placement is more important than expansion. Just my .02

That could be a picture to share, the petals/nose folded inward like a solid at 120 yds that didn't exit the animal on a small buck.

Technically, at what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail, kinda like you said. Bullets are what they are and ultimately man-made which introduces fallacy or imperfection. Didn't look like it should when it was done, I'm glad the animal didn't go to waste laying in the woods.

How far did the animal travel, what shot presentation kept it from entering and exiting at that distance with it basically being a solid.

I'm not questioning anything about it, glad you got the animal. Interested to hear the particulars if you can recall them.

 

[sniper20]

That could be a picture to share, the petals/nose folded inward like a solid at 120 yds that didn't exit the animal on a small buck.

Technically, at what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail, kinda like you said. Bullets are what they are and ultimately man-made which introduces fallacy or imperfection. Didn't look like it should when it was done, I'm glad the animal didn't go to waste laying in the woods.

How far did the animal travel, what shot presentation kept it from entering and exiting at that distance with it basically being a solid.

I'm not questioning anything about it, glad you got the animal. Interested to hear the particulars if you can recall them.

I wish I still had the picture. I kept the bullet and everything, but that was years and 1 move ago... so of course it got lost. I don't appear to have the picture anymore, I'm sure the baby pictures pushed it out.

Animal didn't travel far, surprisingly, only went about 50 yards after jumping a fence. I have used Barnes stuff before (TTSX in my Grendel) and I'm assuming they worked, but never recovered one. Sure did have a lot of shattered shoulders though... But I could never get the velocity I wanted, so they were scrapped.

 

[06 SB]

I had a similar sounding occurrence with the 85TSX in a 243. It was a close shot, limited blood trail and small entrance and exit wounds. In field dressing the deer, I found the petals broke off and stayed in the body cavity but the shank continued on to exit. I would have thought the bullet penciled through if it were not for the five holes in the heart.

 

[sniper20]

I had a similar sounding occurrence with the 85TSX in a 243. It was a close shot, limited blood trail and small entrance and exit wounds. In field dressing the deer, I found the petals broke off and stayed in the body cavity but the shank continued on to exit. I would have thought the bullet penciled through if it were not for the five holes in the heart.

Sounds like too much velocity (for the bullet design) on yours. Mine had the pedals intact unfortunately.

 

[Macintosh]

Is there a problem with the petals coming off? The fragmenting bullet crowd disses monos BECAUSE they dont fragment, its those fragments that make the wound channel bigger. Would be interesting to see actual data, but Id bet the petals coming off actually creates a bigger wound than if the petals stay intact and only mushroom.

 

[Sinistram]

Is there a problem with the petals coming off? The fragmenting bullet crowd disses monos BECAUSE they dont fragment, its those fragments that make the wound channel bigger. Would be interesting to see actual data, but Id bet the petals coming off actually creates a bigger wound than if the petals stay intact and only mushroom.

No problem as far as I've experienced. It happens from time to time depending on velocity, the animal, and how it enters. The shank stays put no matter what and continues to penetrate.

That's how Barnes and a few others are supposed to work, but there are some designs that are supposed to fragment. The Lehigh Defense chaos comes to mind.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Definitely, petals coming off aren't a problem.

 

[juju]

If you want to use traditional bullet weights in 30/30, you need to be particular about shit placement. It's just slow. So you have to account for that. That bullet should have been put directly through a bone going in.

30/30 doesn't get fast enough to be any kind of impressive until you drop to 130gr. Speer's 130 run hot with their load data starts to act like more modern rounds. Hammer sells a 120gr if you insist on monos. Never tried the hammer, but the Speer is excellent.

 

[huntingislife]

I exclusively use only Barnes bullets for all my big game hunting. I have taken deer and pigs from as close as 40 yards to a pig as far as 382 yards as well as one bear at 7 yards. Ive never had an issue with them failing to open. This is a combination of both factory and hand loads. Occasionally I get one that breaks a pedal. Most of the time they penetrate entirely thru but sometimes I will recover the bullet. Most of the time my animals drop on the spot but sometimes the pigs will go 20-40 yards on a hear shot or double lung shot. This is all out of my Tikka 7mm Rem Mag shooting 150 grain or 139 grain barnes ttsx or LRX. I love the Barnes bullets and I would trust my life to them.

 

[35WhelenAI]

There are no flies in the ointment when it comes to Barnes bullets. If you use them you know. I'd trust my life with them as well in a dead-on charge situation of any animal vs a frangible Lead Core bullet. I'll fill the freezer monotonously regularly with them... With "failures" of frangible Lead Core bullets folks are more forgiving of that from my reading.

 

[Drg]

...this morning around 8, I was sitting in my stand. Out of the woods "colonel" emerges (those are 2 bucks in my area I have been catching on camera, "colonel" and "general", "colonel" being smaller than "general" obviously, but still a decent bodied 7 pointer, maybe 8 depends who you ask, but that's a story for another day). I am wielding my 1986 Marlin 336 cs, loaded with 150gr Barnes VOR-TX, outfitted with a Diamondback on top.
"Colonel" positions himself broadside, bends his head down to eat, he is about 30 yards out, I am in my climber in the tree (I use my 30-30 there, it's a fun gun, no shots over 100 yards). Head lifts, I have my crosshairs right behind his shoulder. I squeeze the trigger.

Before I go on, this was my first time using this bullet on deer, I have read some great reviews about the demolishing power of this bullet, with the petals, weight retention, the works. I used to use the good ol corelokts but started using venison to make baby food, didn't want any lead in there, hence picked up these copper ones (I could be wrong about the lead in deer meat, I could be believing the hoax on the internet, I like using coppers on what I will feed my child, okay? okay.) To make this even cooler, "colonel" stands in front of my camera (with 30 seconds clips setting) so I capture the whole thing on film.

The shot was good, right behind the shoulder (I have film to prove it haha), he jumps, then takes off down hill, jumps over barb wire, tumbles, then runs some more, I lose sight of him. No big deal, I will go to the spot I shot him look for blood trail and follow it.
No blood where I shot him, that I could find. I move on down where I thought he ran, trying to step on rocks to not kick any leaves up, looking for blood, nothing. I finally found a drop, followed it, more drops. Just drops (and I think the first spot was where he tumbled, so that could have been even ground contact trail). I finally followed some more blood drops, looked around and saw him lying there under a tree stump. He probably ran good 75-80 yards maybe, it was all zigzagged so hard to tell.

Point of my novel? Well for your enjoyment first and foremost but also to ask this. When I found "colonel" he had an entry and exit wound, both about size of my pinky, he was shot on the lung entry and closer to shoulder exit (but didn't hit the shoulder).
1. Anyone has any experience with 150gr Barnes VOR-TX?
2. I was expecting a much larger expansion from this ammo, I mean internal damage, exit wound the whole thing. From 30 yards out. And I mean...I didn't think there was going to be an exit wound size of my pinky.
3. I was expecting there to be a better blood trail from this shot considering the distance, type of ammo, etc.

Seems like the bullet just penciled through, hitting the lungs, and eventually killing the "colonel", but didn't seem like what this round should have done. Looking at the hollow point bullet, designed for expansion and damage, websites speak of petals that peel back and wreck havoc...all of that, I would have thought it was going to be a DRT type of a situation especially from 30 yards out, or at least a crazy blood trail, assuming the shot was well placed.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?
At the moment, accuracy wasn't the best out of my Marlin but good enough for deer woods out to 100 yards, real life experience not perfect either, thinking about switching up the ammo. Or did I just miss the whole thing and this ammo does. Just that.

If he only went 75-80 yards then the bullet expanded fine. Can’t always tell by the exit hole. And you can always shoot for the shoulder and don’t sweat a little wasted meat