6.5 Creedmoor Penetration

[bliner]

Last year I got my son a Ruger American in 6.5 Creedmoor. Last year he shot a white tail buck at 220 yards, broadside in the lungs (no shoulder) with a 129 grain Interlock. It performed fine and killed the deer but no exit. I wasn’t surprised that it wasn’t a pass through due to the bullet. My younger son wanted to hunt elk this year with that rifle so I switched to 130 grain terminal ascent for a tougher bullet and more penetration. This year my older son shot a Mulie at approximately 100-120 yards. It was a downhill shot and he hit it high in the chest cavity and took out a lung with minor damage to the other lung, no exit. Then he shot it again as it took off and hit it in the rear quarter and broke the femur, the bullet stopped after hitting the bone without exiting the rear quarter. I was pretty surprised by the lack of penetration with this bullet, especially after seeing all the posts in the 6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever thread where people are getting pass throughs at longer ranges and with non bonded bullets.
For those of you that shoot. 6.5 Creedmoor, does this lack of penetration surprise you? I’d like to hear others experience with terminal ascent in this cartridge, wondering if this was a fluke or not unusual. TA has been great in my 308 on deer and elk, but I’m not confident at all about using this ammo in 6.5 cm for elk anymore. I’m thinking I’ll switch to a mono metal bullet with the potential to use it on elk.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

No experience with those bullets, but you might want to consider G9 Defense 113g Long Range Hunter ammunition. Machined brass with a two part expanding design. Petals shear off and cause a wide would channel, while the shank continues to penetrate deeply. I killed two sheep this season with this bullet, both frontal quartering shots. One shank exited out mid body and the other ended up in the rear offside quarter after passing through the entire body. The damage from the petals was impressive.

 

[rideold]

That's kind of surprising but I don't have any experience with that bullet. I would change that for your setup since other bullets seem to be quite effective. My son shot a good sized muley broadside at 120ish yards last month with a Barnes 120 gr TTSX factory load and it was a complete pass through with ribs broken on both sides and both lungs. This was out of a Savage 110 hunter.

 

[Formidilosus]

Last year I got my son a Ruger American in 6.5 Creedmoor. Last year he shot a white tail buck at 220 yards, broadside in the lungs (no shoulder) with a 129 grain Interlock. It performed fine and killed the deer but no exit. I wasn’t surprised that it wasn’t a pass through due to the bullet. My younger son wanted to hunt elk this year with that rifle so I switched to 130 grain terminal ascent for a tougher bullet and more penetration. This year my older son shot a Mulie at approximately 100-120 yards. It was a downhill shot and he hit it high in the chest cavity and took out a lung with minor damage to the other lung, no exit. Then he shot it again as it took off and hit it in the rear quarter and broke the femur, the bullet stopped after hitting the bone without exiting the rear quarter. I was pretty surprised by the lack of penetration with this bullet, especially after seeing all the posts in the 6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever thread where people are getting pass throughs at longer ranges and with non bonded bullets.
For those of you that shoot. 6.5 Creedmoor, does this lack of penetration surprise you?

A bonded, wide opening at high impact velocity bullet with high weight retention, has a lot of frontal area and creates a lot of drag through the animal. Despite internet lore nonsense- this often reduces penetration. So no, it isn’t surprising, though shoot more of them and you will get exits.

I’d like to hear others experience with terminal ascent in this cartridge, wondering if this was a fluke or not unusual. TA has been great in my 308 on deer and elk, but I’m not confident at all about using this ammo in 6.5 cm for elk anymore. I’m thinking I’ll switch to a mono metal bullet with the potential to use it on elk.

If you have read the 6.5 for killing thread, there’s a common theme- heavy for caliber, tipped match bullets. Switching to a mono will only cause slower deaths, longer runs, and more head scratching in general.

I would highly suggest reading these in their entirety.

Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

This is going to be a barrage of questions. It will help to view me as a skeptic relative to the matter at hand. I am going to do some load development for my new 6mm Creed. I live in the southeast where shots are rarely taken at more than 100 yards. But, I fancy that I will take a trip out...

rokslide.com

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

If you want good terminal performanc that tends to exit on deer and broadside elk, the Berger 130gr OTM AR is very solid.

 

[bliner]

Thank you guys for your feedback. I’ve read most of the 223 for deer, elk, moose thread and have shared it with a few friends, pretty impressive! I haven’t read the Why match/target bullets for hunting but will definitely do so soon.

 

[hereinaz]

It wasn’t a bad hit or a lack of velocity at that range. The bullet just didn’t cause enough carnage. Imagine your shot placement on the .223 thread. Picture what the inside of the deer would look like and ask yourself do you want a pass through or carnage? I’d say the second lung would have been partially shredded by fragments, not just clipped. The first lung would have had massive and catastrophic failure. Who doesn’t want that?

Deer run when damage is limited to small areas that allow blood to pump. Running is proof a wound is insufficient and the animal had capacity to keep blood pumping to the brain. A pass through wouldn’t change anything practical. It’s why archery kills lead to sure death, but you need to give animals time to bleed out and lose consciousness and then die.

Put a match bullet in the same spot, and all the fragments would have shredded and devestated both lungs. The deer may get 50 yards before falling, usually much less. It simply runs out of blood to support consciousness.

Death comes from lack of blood to the brain or a hit to the central nervous system that shuts the brain down. There is no other way to die.

“Pass throughs” are for blood trails to track an animal for hunters that don’t have confidence the bullet will cause massive trauma and fast death.

If a hunter isn’t confident enough in a bullet to reliably cause fast death, they might want a pass through for tracking. But, that paradigm operates on the premise that less fragmentation is the desired outcome.

It is counterintuitive to the typical hunter lore and paradigm, but you really want no exit. Things like retained weight and exit are so ingrained into culture. I think hunters really want maximum carnage and fast death, so pass through must fall to the bottom of the list of priorities. But, tradition and “common knowledge” is hard to overcome when there is fear and lack of trust.

Those who understand highly fragmenting match bullets couldn’t give a hoot about pass throughs, because they trust the bullet will cause as much destruction as possible resulting in brain death by lack of blood to the brain.

That is the ultimate point of the .223 thread, it’s not about bullet size, deep penetration, pass through, etc. It primarily proves tissue destruction and carnage kills animals very fast. Secondary are things like shoot a small rifle with more precision and less recoil.

You stick with your 6.5 cause recoil isn’t terrible, but consider the idea of match bullet carnage when you read about match bullets. You will see how your 6.5 will cause even more carnage than the .233. It will talk about why they cause the most carnage and kill most reliably.

It’s not to say that other bullets don’t kill and penetration is irrelevant. Hunters sort their own priorities and have their own unique desires or situations. But, at least you will understand that is is indisputable match bullets leave behind more carnage than any other type of bullets.

 

[roosiebull]

Last year I got my son a Ruger American in 6.5 Creedmoor. Last year he shot a white tail buck at 220 yards, broadside in the lungs (no shoulder) with a 129 grain Interlock. It performed fine and killed the deer but no exit. I wasn’t surprised that it wasn’t a pass through due to the bullet. My younger son wanted to hunt elk this year with that rifle so I switched to 130 grain terminal ascent for a tougher bullet and more penetration. This year my older son shot a Mulie at approximately 100-120 yards. It was a downhill shot and he hit it high in the chest cavity and took out a lung with minor damage to the other lung, no exit. Then he shot it again as it took off and hit it in the rear quarter and broke the femur, the bullet stopped after hitting the bone without exiting the rear quarter. I was pretty surprised by the lack of penetration with this bullet, especially after seeing all the posts in the 6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever thread where people are getting pass throughs at longer ranges and with non bonded bullets.
For those of you that shoot. 6.5 Creedmoor, does this lack of penetration surprise you? I’d like to hear others experience with terminal ascent in this cartridge, wondering if this was a fluke or not unusual. TA has been great in my 308 on deer and elk, but I’m not confident at all about using this ammo in 6.5 cm for elk anymore. I’m thinking I’ll switch to a mono metal bullet with the potential to use it on elk.
View attachment 630771

I have shot terminal ascent out of our creed the past few years and have liked them a lot, have not had any marginal results with them, prior to that it was accubond, also worked well but the terminal ascent seems to create a bigger wound channel… several elk in the mix with that rifle

I don’t recall if it was an AB or TA, but I took a young lady on her first elk hunt and after the first shot it stood there but turned towards us, so I told her to shoot again quarter to… that bullet went through the whole elk, and blew up the femur on the exit, which surprised me… I don’t recall if that bullet got caught in the hide or not, but impressive nonetheless

When we run out of the TA’s (it’s my wife and daughter’s rifle) I will be switching to eldm/x but I have no issues shooting elk with them in the meantime

Like Form mentioned, they are a tougher bullet that creates a large frontal diameter which slows the bullet down, and by memory, most of the time on deer and elk, the hide catches the bullet on the off side.

I think a softer bullet is a better mousetrap, but I have had good results with the TA in the creed. I’m getting low now and will take Form’s advice going forward and shooting tipped match bullets out of that rifle, lots of reasons to do so, and no reasons not to, they perform better

I didn’t even like monos in my 7mag, and won’t shoot them unless legally required to… I tried them a couple years and that was enough for me

 

[MikeDeltaFoxtrot]

I shot a button buck this week with a 6.5CM. Load was a hand loaded 140 grain Accubond. It was a snap shot through the woods at 78 yards. Double lung shot. Broke a rib on both sides. The bullet fragmented slightly, but the main body of passed through. Deer stumbled and fell a bit down the hill DRT.

I prefer heavier calibers, but I was hunting with my 10 year old son, and we were sharing the one rifle in the same stand. It certainly worked.

 

[bliner]

Thanks for your thoughts on this guys. I’m in the process of reading the Why match/target bullets for hunting thread. I definitely see the logic of increased wound channel/carnage of those bullets, and will probably give them a try.
Roosiebull, your experience on that elk with the TA or AB is impressive.
I’m not really hung up on getting a pass through if sufficient internal damage is done to put an animal down quickly, but if a bullet isn’t going to do more internal damage (like the TAs minimal damage on my sons mulie), I would expect more penetration since those two things generally seem to be inversely related.

 

[kickemall]

Form covered it well but if you listen to the Shoot2Hunt podcast with Form, Ryan and UM Jake about wound channels you’ll get a wealth of info. Short version - match bullets good - non lead bullets not so much.

 

[m77huntr]

This is from my 6.5, shot at a little over 100yds with 129g SST going 2980fps. I was surprised it passed through being a fragmenting bullet and all. The initial splatter was where hit and where the stump is in the background with my gun is where she died. Maybe 10yards. I have no complaints.

 

[hereinaz]

This is from my 6.5, shot at a little over 100yds with 129g SST going 2980fps. I was surprised it passed through being a fragmenting bullet and all. The initial splatter was where hit and where the stump is in the background with my gun is where she died. Maybe 10yards. I have no complaints.

Speed kills, and causes exits. Also, "frontal" area of the bit is a contributing factor. It's complex. I get exits with sharp pieces of jacket that are slicing through the critter rather than "bulldozing" like a bonded bullet.

I have had exits with fragmenting bullets from 100 yards to 730 yards with my magnums at 3100 fps muzzle velocity. The 730 yard was with my 180 VLD 7mm and it went through a hard quartered coues buck and left jacket in the offside rear quarter. Had one of three impacts exit a bull at 500. At 100 yards with my 7mm and .257 I saw blood fly on the shot and blew out chunks of lung from small caribou.

After that coues buck was when I decided I could step down to the 133 gr. 257 Bergers.

 

[BRTreedogs]

This is from my 6.5, shot at a little over 100yds with 129g SST going 2980fps. I was surprised it passed through being a fragmenting bullet and all. The initial splatter was where hit and where the stump is in the background with my gun is where she died. Maybe 10yards. I have no complaints.

The sst is a rapid expanding tipped traditional bullet

It is not a fragmenting bullet .

 

[JGRaider]

IME, after about 150 hogs and 50 or so whitetail does, the 130 accubond has no peer as a hunting/killing bullet in my 6.5CM, followed closely by the 139 Scenar. It is a killing machine, and way more often than not exits the animal. I've not had the need or desire to look at much anything else, even though I have experimented with several others......120 BT (badass as well), 120 TTSX (meh), 129LRAB (not bad).

 

[hereinaz]

IME, after about 150 hogs and 50 or so whitetail does, the 130 accubond has no peer as a hunting/killing bullet in my 6.5CM, followed closely by the 139 Scenar. It is a killing machine, and way more often than not exits the animal. I've not had the need or desire to look at much anything else, even though I have experimented with several others......120 BT (badass as well), 120 TTSX (meh), 129LRAB (not bad).

That says as much about your shooting as the bullets. Every bullet can kill, but consistently killing requires putting the bullet in the right place.

Those scenars are know to be devastating. Not a hunting bullet, but a reliable killer. I hear they are a little less fragmentary than Berger Hunting and ELDm

What’s your comparison between the AB and Scenars? You have good sampling, makes me curious.

 

[Unckebob]

Why are you using such light for caliber bullets? I think the 140g(ish) class bullets are the norm for 6.5 CM cartridges.

I like 143g Precision Hunter or handloaded Nosler Ballistic Tips

 

[Mike D Texas]

Why are you using such light for caliber bullets? I think the 140g(ish) class bullets are the norm for 6.5 CM cartridges.

I like 143g Precision Hunter or handloaded Nosler Ballistic Tipped

The problem with heavy bullets in the Creed at least for hunting is the low velocity they produce.

When you are only starting in the low to mid 2700fps range, they run out of steam and ability to expand reliably at distance.

For target shooting which is what the Creed was designed for expansion/fragmentation doesn’t matter.


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[amassi]

The problem with heavy bullets in the Creed at least for hunting is the low velocity they produce.

When you are only starting in the low to mid 2700fps range, they run out of steam and ability to expand reliably at distance.

For target shooting which is what the Creed was designed for expansion/fragmentation doesn’t matter.


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Yea the 140/147 class only has enough upset velocity out to 750 at sea level and 900~ at 5000’
Could use some more steam for all those missed opportunities


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[BRTreedogs]

The problem with heavy bullets in the Creed at least for hunting is the low velocity they produce.

When you are only starting in the low to mid 2700fps range, they run out of steam and ability to expand reliably at distance.

For target shooting which is what the Creed was designed for expansion/fragmentation doesn’t matter.


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With a muzzle velocity of 2685 the 147 eldm doesn't hit 1800 fps until 775

How much more do you need?
And how much further are you getting with the lighter bullet?

 

[JGRaider]

That says as much about your shooting as the bullets. Every bullet can kill, but consistently killing requires putting the bullet in the right place.

Those scenars are know to be devastating. Not a hunting bullet, but a reliable killer. I hear they are a little less fragmentary than Berger Hunting and ELDm

What’s your comparison between the AB and Scenars? You have good sampling, makes me curious.

To be perfectly honest, the vast majority of the time I get pass throughs with both of them. The scenars typically have shown quarter sized exits, the AB slightly less (nickle?). I believe the Scenars are for sure a tougher bullet than the Bergers. Also, they are really easy to load accurately. They don't seem to be too picky about seating depth. They run 2760 in my 20"
CTR, the AB 2830.