6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[wyosam]

From my experience last year it could be because people show up with their 6.5 that they have been shooting targets with at 1000 yds and want to shoot at an Elk that is 700-1000 yds. They are tired of losing bulls that are
hit at that distance but not killed. All calibers can kill an elk with a well placed shot. The issue rarely talked about is the optimal kill range of calibers. Everyone says heck I have killed many bulls with my 243 or 270.
But they are not taking 600 + yd shots. I had a woman and her husband show up in NM with her $ 15K Gunwerks 6.5 and her husband proclaimed she was going to kill an elk at 950 because it was a 1000 yd gun.
She had never shot it at 1000 yds....that is what outfitters are dealing with.....

Maybe instead of banning all 6.5’s they should ban ones with giant scopes and a drop chart taped to it. On elk, there shouldn’t be a lot of dialing going on. In fact if the guide sees them getting out an app for a reasonable shot with a Creed on elk, he should slap them. If you don’t know your dope inside 400, you should probably just hunt with a shotgun.


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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

From my experience last year it could be because people show up with their 6.5 that they have been shooting targets with at 1000 yds and want to shoot at an Elk that is 700-1000 yds. They are tired of losing bulls that are
hit at that distance but not killed. All calibers can kill an elk with a well placed shot. The issue rarely talked about is the optimal kill range of calibers. Everyone says heck I have killed many bulls with my 243 or 270.
But they are not taking 600 + yd shots. I had a woman and her husband show up in NM with her $ 15K Gunwerks 6.5 and her husband proclaimed she was going to kill an elk at 950 because it was a 1000 yd gun.
She had never shot it at 1000 yds....that is what outfitters are dealing with.....

Would make more sense to limit shot distance rather than banning a specific caliber.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Would make more sense to limit shot distance rather than banning a specific caliber.

And this is where I disagree with the alledged banning. As a client I would expect a guide to get me within a shot distance where a clean kill can be assured if I do my part. This could be an ignorant expectation though as I have never used one.

 

[Rich M]

Seen a couple man buns today... Get a hair cut! Shoot big gun or stay home.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Seen a couple man buns today... Get a hair cut! Shoot big gun or stay home.

I do hope that you are being sarcastic. Otherwise that is a very elitist way of thinking.

 

[Cordellh]

Maybe it's less about the caliber of bullet and more about who shoots the 6.5?

 

[brsnow]

Maybe it's less about the caliber of bullet and more about who shoots the 6.5?

Hunters?

 

[Spoonbill]

I've seen caliber requirements before, buddy of mine went hunting in New Mexico and the outfitter said 30 cal minimum, except for a 7mag. The outfitter banned the 308 and 270 specifically. I think a lot of it comes down to past clients being poor shots/ not knowing their limitations and poor bullet selection. I've heard a story of a Montana outfitter making their clients hit a propane tank at 200 yards with 3 shots before letting the clients go elk hunting. Seems like a better system than banning calibers.

 

[mcseal2]

I don’t have a big opinion on 6.5’s. I do on bullet choice for elk. I have seen 3 whitetail bucks shot with a 143 grain ELD-X. On two there was no exit wound with a broadside shot. As tough as elk can be I personally want a tougher, deeper penetrating bullet than that. I’ve shot a lot of deer with the 264 win mag pushing a 140 grain Accubond and only ever recovered one bullet. It was from a 200” muley I shot just in front of the hip quartering away hard, I recovered the bullet under the hide of his neck on the opposite side. There was no opportunity to wait for a better shot.

I’ve shot elk with the 270 win and 7mm Rem mag with Partition or Accubond bullets. I’m sure the 6.5’s would work just as well with the right bullet. I’d be fine with taking my 264 win mag. I have a 300 win mag that’s lighter though and it will go on my elk hunts instead shooting a tough 180 grain bullet.

Only two guided hunts I ever went on I asked the guide if I could shoot my rifle when we got to camp after travel. Both times the guides were impressed that I was willing to shoot in front of them and it got us started off on the right foot. The 200” muley mentioned earlier was taken on one of those hunts, and I think the guide hunted me different after I demonstrated I was fast and proficient from field positions, at least it was a good start to him hunting different with me. I think it helped my success.

Both guides I hunted with and others I’m friends with have horror stories about clients shooting. I bet the rules are intended to prevent a mediocre marksman from showing up with a fragile bullet as much as anything. Most factory 6.5 stuff is long range marketed and not loaded with a tough bullet. I have only taken a few coyotes and one deer with it, but the 130 grain Sirocco is what I’m feeding my 6.5 Creed after going away from the ELD-X. I like the results so far.

 

[Spiral Horn]

Yeah, this kind of thing is getting to be a real issue. There are too many guys buying engineered long-range shooting rigs and convinced they can duplicate ideal range performance in the field. Just a few bad experiences and the outfitter/guide community chatter goes viral.

As a lifelong bowhunter I’ve faced this before with outfitters who previously had a bad or greenhorn bowhunter, wounded game, etc. Had to overcome a lot of bias, even down to broadhead and fletching choices. BS stopped when the archery target came out or the game was “in the salt.”

Personally think it’s far better for a guy to show up with a weapon he’s intimately familiar with and has taken game with. Would much rather see a guy with a 6.5 PRC and a bunch of trophy photos than a new .338 he’s afraid to shoot. All-in-all, when a veteran hunter shows up with a .270 or 30-06 the game is probably going to be impressed.

 

[brsnow]

As long as they articulate this prior to booking, they can set their own guidelines.

 

[4ester]

The real problem here is that a lot of people don’t know their limitations.

I shoot to 1000 yards regularly, but things are different on the side of a mountain, in a weird position, wind blowing, hunting clothes on. I feel comfortable to around 500 yards, but prefer closer.

I absolutely despise these package guns because it gives guys a false sense of security. Talked to a guy a few years back who bragged up his new Best of the West rifle, then proceeded to fire 23 rounds at a bear at 1k yards.

Shoot your dang guns, often, in different conditions, positions, ranges and still limit your hunting distances.

If I was a guide I’d want to see my client shoot at the range. And for every MOA plate he hits, we still cut the distance in half for hunting. Especially with a 6.5 caliber, that’s already lacking in bullet weight. Less room for error.


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[CAElkhunter]

I have harvested many elk and last year when my guide in NM asked me if I wanted to take a 950 yd shot into the sun off a shaky shooting position I laughed at him. I shoot a 300 Ultra mag well and would not attempt a shot like that. His response....if it ain't flyin it ain't dyin..you need to get target turrets on your gun...I said...or just get closer to ethical kill range....I don't see shooting an Elk at 1000 yds as ethical unless I am prone with a perfect shooting situation. How often do you find that on Elk?

 

[Where's Bruce?]

 

[RyanT26]

That’s awesome.

 

[AaronMColeman]

AaronMColeman,

You are correct that the "corelocks' and "power points" have killed many elk and deer. No doubt that in most cases coupled with a good hold they will continue to perform. I'm of the school that I want to have that extra margin of performance and penetration for a less than stellar shot. As good as the rounds are they have some better ones IMHO that have been produced in the last 2 decades.

One example of what getting to is the performance of a 200 gr. Hornady pointed soft point in my ,358 Winchester. Finding ammo for this 1955 Model 70 featherweight has been a task. I was tickled to find a box of this factory load that grouped well through the 19" barrel. With this accurate load I was confident I could make a clean kill. In mid-December I took a fine 3 1/2 year old 4X4 whitetail while hunting on public land in Louisiana. The shot was only 45 yards with the buck quartering towards me. Out of habit my hold was just behind the front shoulder. Not the best choice, but I did get a whole lot of lung. The buck was hit hard and continued on his line where I made two follow up shots as fast as I could work the jeweled bolt action in my now favorite rifle. The second shot was a clean miss as the deer stumbled and I shot in front of his chest. It appears he broke a hind leg in his effort to escape. He only hesitated for a 1/2 second when I nailed him with the third shot now quartering away. The entry wounds were in almost the same hole. While field dressing and later skinning and quartering the buck, we found only one exit wound. The 1st shot would have been fatal with an exit wound low and back on the off-side. the 3rd shot dropped him and it looks like it found bone after passing through the lungs. The second jacketed soft point came apart. the largest piece being the copper or gliding metal jacket weighing less than 25 grains!. My concern is what if the angle, distance and other factors allowed only one hit. What if the buck weighted 250# instead of 170? I might not get an exit wound and could struggle to find the buck with out a good blood trail. The accuracy was fine and had I placed the shot INSIDE his shoulder it might have dropped him. The deer was down wind of my stand, so I did not hesitate once I spotted him.

I found a service in Delaware that loads custom ammo, as I don't yet reload. They sent me two boxes of 200 gr. TTSX loaded ammo. Was pleased that they shoot even tighter groups than either the Hornady or the Winchester Silvertips. I managed to kill a spike using these TTSX loads on a February trip to Alabama. The shot was broadside (90 yards) from a ladder stand with a shooting rail. My shot was near perfect. Top of the heart just behind the fore leg with a identical location for the exit on the off-side. Result was a ,35 caliber hole going in and 60 or 70 caliber exit. No meat damage and the deer traveled about 30 yards and died. A 4 year old could have followed the blood trail.

With this load I would not hesitate to shoot an elk out to 300 yards. Of the modern bullets I really like the Nosler AccuBond, My brother is a huge fan of the partition. Have killed 3 bulls with a ,280 Rem utilizing a 160 Fail Safe load. They performed flawlessly breaking bone when needed, but are long since discontinued. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claws are impressive but they wont group out of my rifle. I'm thinking the E-tip may be another good choice along with the Swift bullets or the ELD-X. Your results may vary.

LaGriz

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for working up good loads and some of the "sexy rounds". I reload and I'm always tinkering with my load and bullet. In fact, I'm really considering a 6.5PRC or maybe stepping up to something like a 6.5-284 Norma. So I'm a fan of modern rounds, modern bullet design, and even some of the brand new calibers.

But, I'll take a guy who shoots corelokt .270 on a regular basis over someone who has a custom built 6.5PRC with the best ammo you can find and has tested out a box at the range a few times. It doesn't have to be all oldschool or all new. To me nothing can replace practice, and once you have a gun you can shoot well and practice often, then start talking about the details surrounding the dozen new 6.5mm rounds. PRACTICE is #1 by a mile, but the rest of the stuff is not unimportant either. Honestly, I enjoy the hobby surrounding shooting as much as the actual practical application. I love to tinker. But, at the end of the day, I'm taking my trusty old 30-06 into the woods with me any time I hunt.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Would make more sense to limit shot distance rather than banning a specific caliber.

Maybe it's less about the caliber of bullet and more about who shoots the 6.5?

As long as they articulate this prior to booking, they can set their own guidelines.

These pretty much sum it up in my opinion. Go Practice before trying to kill a magnificent animal. Wounding animals is part of hunting. Wounding them because the hunter was too lazy to work on his/her craft is gross.

 

[wyosam]

I’m guessing that was a “0.5 MOA all day out to a thousand” rifle.


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[Sled]

I've heard a story of a Montana outfitter making their clients hit a propane tank at 200 yards with 3 shots before letting the clients go elk hunting. Seems like a better system than banning calibers.

well that's not all that impressive. especially if it's one of those 1000 gallon tanks next to someones house. might want to be further away than 200 yards.




yeah i know, empty 5 gal. still should be a better shot than that.

 

[Spoonbill]

well that's not all that impressive. especially if it's one of those 1000 gallon tanks next to someones house. might want to be further away than 200 yards.




yeah i know, empty 5 gal. still should be a better shot than that.

Actually it was wierd they were trying to get the people to shoot 308 tracers and the propane tank was on the neighbors place.....
All kidding aside, I agree considering the quality of optics that you can buy today. That story was from the late 80s/early 90s, but I wouldnt be surprised if minute of propane tank was still being used.