6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[LightFoot]

...

>>>----JAKE----->

 

[rayporter]

how on the face of this earth are all you guys getting perfect broad side shots????

 

[chutinlead]

how on the face of this earth are all you guys getting perfect broad side shots????

Gotta shout "HEY"

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

Gotta shout "HEY"

I mean, it worked for me...

 

[brsnow]

how on the face of this earth are all you guys getting perfect broad side shots????

Under 400 yards I can’t see it mattering much, but I use a .270 and .308. My father in law uses my 6.5 CM and doesn’t shoot over 200 yards.

 

[wyosam]

how on the face of this earth are all you guys getting perfect broad side shots????

Can’t speak for everybody, but I frequently don’t. Depending on range and other conditions, I may or may not take other shots presented. Perfect broadside represents the far end of my range. I also find that the longer the shot is, the more likely I can just wait for the right angle to present itself. The biggest part, is just because there is an elk in your cross hairs that you have a potential shot at, or even that you really want to kill, doesn’t mean you have to or should take the shot. I pass a lot of elk that I could shoot, and I’m not even a horn hunter.


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[Jonoton]

I honestly hate it when clients bring their own rifles anymore, I can say the the last few year 40% animals have been shot with the guides rifle after the client shit the bed a couple times.

My least favorite saying is, check out my new gunwerks..

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Honestly, this sounds like the start of a great service to offer customers. Build a solid no-frills rifle, guarantee that it is dialed in at the elevation to be hunted with appropriate bullets for the target animal (and not having been flown etc), and give the customer 20 rounds to get familiar with it at the base camp range. Offer it for sale at a given price, If the customer is successful on the hunt give them a 10% discount. The guide removes one variable, the client decreases their up front cost and logistics and can 'get a good deal on a rifle' to appease their wife and have a souvenir. Repeat customers!

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Honestly, this sounds like the start of a great service to offer customers. Build a solid no-frills rifle, guarantee that it is dialed in at the elevation to be hunted with appropriate bullets for the target animal (and not having been flown etc), and give the customer 20 rounds to get familiar with it at the base camp range. Offer it for sale at a given price, If the customer is successful on the hunt give them a 10% discount. The guide removes one variable, the client decreases their up front cost and logistics and can 'get a good deal on a rifle' to appease their wife and have a souvenir. Repeat customers!

Most clients don’t want to spend an extra let’s say $1000 for their rifle, let’s say my clients are in $660 for their elk tag, $5000 for their guided week long hunt, 2-4 hotel nights for trip out some guys spend an extra few days to acclimate or rental days on car, fuel/flight charge (most guys drive cause shipping meat and antlers is expensive).

I mean would be a great idea to do, but if I have 15 guided clients I’m not sure how many rifles I could “buy” then sell to the client, next factor is right now is a 3 day wait for backgrounds so would have a full day of taking them to a shop, filling out background checks then hope it goes through while we’re on the hunt.


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[Outdoorsman12b]

Even 20+ years ago I heard of outfitters that wouldn't allow anything under a .30cal size for elk. When they start seeing a pattern with their clients, perhaps it's time for them to set their ground rules. Just like some outfitters won't allow mechanicals for bowhunting elk. It's their business, they can set the rules however they want IMO. If potential clients don't like the rules, they can book somewhere

These threads just keep coming. Look a 6.5 will do an elk and we all agree that it’s better to lung shoot an animal with a .243 rather than gut shoot one with a .338. But that being said there is likely a pattern of hunters who simply buy some form of 6.5 then claim to be an instant expert tell the guide they can make a 500 yard shot and loose animals or miss. After an outfitter sees this a few times it becomes easier to just say no 6.5s in an attempt to weed out the “expert” marksman. I have personally heard many folks say they just bought whatever cartridge and are now good to go at long range.

Your right there are more than a few threads on this forum that discuss the 6.5 adequacy for killing game and I guess that’s what this thread has turned into. What’s interesting is you don’t read the same about 7mm. For example the 7-08 using factory ammo is offering the same bullet weight and comparable velocities.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

JVB also tells the story of the “dude” who paid for his $12,000 Gunwerks 6.5PRC, had everything done for him (Loading, sighting, etc.), and shipped it to the ranch. He then proceeded to fire for effect at “long” range on a big bull. Sounds like a good reason to ban THAT idiot regardless of caliber. Really can’t blame the outfitter; everything will be his fault as very few these days have any personal responsibility. If you pay enough money you are entitled to nothing but success...

JBV is certainly the source that started this thread. I believe I am familiar with the episode you are referencing where the client shot several magazines before making a hit. The episode does not detail where the impact was though which led to the lost bull. He uses this example to help substantiate his stance in the 6.5 calibers for elk. A larger caliber may have made a difference we will never know, but the punchline in that example is not to shoot at ranges your unconfident IMO.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

6.5 is a fine midrange caliber...one of many. But it is not a magical caliber. Whatever you shoot, (archery included) it is familiarity with the weapon and diligent practice that increases accuracy. More often the failure is one of ethics. We should take the shot we know we can make and forego those we are uncertain of. I have been on both sides of that line and as good as the "perfect shots" feel...the misses are awful and carry much more weight. My 6.5CM is reserved for predators (coyotes, lions, etc) but for an animal that weighs 4-9 times those or more it would not be my choice.

 

[SummitsCalling]

Two words: Shot Placement. My guess is the outfitter got tired of clients wounding animals with bad shots/too far of a shot. You should be able to get within 200yds of an elk(if I was guided I'd be shocked otherwise) so might just come down clients who don't practice

 

[Michael54]

Gotta shout "HEY"

Gotta add Motherf#@ker. Those two words loudly have stopped a lot of moving animals for me.

 

[LaGriz]

Confidence plays a role,

I haven't we all heard many stories of a whitetail hunter purchasing a magnum prior to their 1st elk hunt. The hunter may have been very accurate with is trusted .270 but, wanted the additional power of a 30 caliber magnum. Recoil, muzzle blast, different fit, and the cost of the ammo for practice, all played a part in him being less efficient and much less confident. The result being: no shot (too slow to acquire) due to unfamiliarity, a total miss, or in a worse case a poor hit. No one wants to be that guy?

"Beware the man who only owns one rifle." If you know your rifle and your load, (assuming it is a good quality bullet) your better off hunting with your old friend. Limit your shots if need be. Bullet placement is key. Changing from a soft point to a "controlled expansion" round might be the best route. Elk are bigger with thick bones, its only logical your projectile must be up to it. With all the choices out there, getting the best group with one of these tougher pills is going to be attainable. I saw a 140 grain swift A-frame recovered from the off side of a bull taken at 150+ yards. Talk about a perfect mushroom! The year was 2000. Since that date one can find many high quality loads for the 30-06, 270, 280, .308 and other common chamberings.

I'm guilty of too much practice from the bench, and not enough from hunting positions. Mostly because I'm always looking for a better load for a particular rifle. While hunting, my shots of late have been in the whitetail woods and often involved a rest on a ladder stand or a very close off-hand shot. This can cover up errors in form that may catch up to me on a shot from a more challenging field position. Its all a work in progress!

LaGriz

 

[AaronMColeman]

Confidence plays a role,

I haven't we all heard many stories of a whitetail hunter purchasing a magnum prior to their 1st elk hunt. The hunter may have been very accurate with is trusted .270 but, wanted the additional power of a 30 caliber magnum. Recoil, muzzle blast, different fit, and the cost of the ammo for practice, all played a part in him being less efficient and much less confident. The result being: no shot (too slow to acquire) due to unfamiliarity, a total miss, or in a worse case a poor hit. No one wants to be that guy?

"Beware the man who only owns one rifle." If you know your rifle and your load, (assuming it is a good quality bullet) your better off hunting with your old friend. Limit your shots if need be. Bullet placement is key. Changing from a soft point to a "controlled expansion" round might be the best route. Elk are bigger with thick bones, its only logical your projectile must be up to it. With all the choices out there, getting the best group with one of these tougher pills is going to be attainable. I saw a 140 grain swift A-frame recovered from the off side of a bull taken at 150+ yards. Talk about a perfect mushroom! The year was 2000. Since that date one can find many high quality loads for the 30-06, 270, 280, .308 and other common chamberings.

I'm guilty of too much practice from the bench, and not enough from hunting positions. Mostly because I'm always looking for a better load for a particular rifle. While hunting, my shots of late have been in the whitetail woods and often involved a rest on a ladder stand or a very close off-hand shot. This can cover up errors in form that may catch up to me on a shot from a more challenging field position. Its all a work in progress!

LaGriz

In my early 20s I bought a used savage 111 30-06 with leoupold vxII 3-9 scope. I have shot enough rounds to burn out most of the sexy caliber barrels. But, I would take that rifle anywhere for any game outside of small game. I can shoot it, I'm comfortable with it, I've practiced at longer ranges, I've practiced off-hand, I've practiced laying in the mud on my side, all sorts of goofy things. I am the man with one rifle who is definitely my old friend

I've also killed elk with any number of bullets, many of which are probably sub-par elk bullets.

Point is, until maybe 25 years ago, most of the sexy and high performance rounds didn't exist and lots of animals were killed. And, I feel like a lot of guys just had their hunting rifle that did everything they needed.

 

[LaGriz]

AaronMColeman,

You are correct that the "corelocks' and "power points" have killed many elk and deer. No doubt that in most cases coupled with a good hold they will continue to perform. I'm of the school that I want to have that extra margin of performance and penetration for a less than stellar shot. As good as the rounds are they have some better ones IMHO that have been produced in the last 2 decades.

One example of what getting to is the performance of a 200 gr. Hornady pointed soft point in my ,358 Winchester. Finding ammo for this 1955 Model 70 featherweight has been a task. I was tickled to find a box of this factory load that grouped well through the 19" barrel. With this accurate load I was confident I could make a clean kill. In mid-December I took a fine 3 1/2 year old 4X4 whitetail while hunting on public land in Louisiana. The shot was only 45 yards with the buck quartering towards me. Out of habit my hold was just behind the front shoulder. Not the best choice, but I did get a whole lot of lung. The buck was hit hard and continued on his line where I made two follow up shots as fast as I could work the jeweled bolt action in my now favorite rifle. The second shot was a clean miss as the deer stumbled and I shot in front of his chest. It appears he broke a hind leg in his effort to escape. He only hesitated for a 1/2 second when I nailed him with the third shot now quartering away. The entry wounds were in almost the same hole. While field dressing and later skinning and quartering the buck, we found only one exit wound. The 1st shot would have been fatal with an exit wound low and back on the off-side. the 3rd shot dropped him and it looks like it found bone after passing through the lungs. The second jacketed soft point came apart. the largest piece being the copper or gliding metal jacket weighing less than 25 grains!. My concern is what if the angle, distance and other factors allowed only one hit. What if the buck weighted 250# instead of 170? I might not get an exit wound and could struggle to find the buck with out a good blood trail. The accuracy was fine and had I placed the shot INSIDE his shoulder it might have dropped him. The deer was down wind of my stand, so I did not hesitate once I spotted him.

I found a service in Delaware that loads custom ammo, as I don't yet reload. They sent me two boxes of 200 gr. TTSX loaded ammo. Was pleased that they shoot even tighter groups than either the Hornady or the Winchester Silvertips. I managed to kill a spike using these TTSX loads on a February trip to Alabama. The shot was broadside (90 yards) from a ladder stand with a shooting rail. My shot was near perfect. Top of the heart just behind the fore leg with a identical location for the exit on the off-side. Result was a ,35 caliber hole going in and 60 or 70 caliber exit. No meat damage and the deer traveled about 30 yards and died. A 4 year old could have followed the blood trail.

With this load I would not hesitate to shoot an elk out to 300 yards. Of the modern bullets I really like the Nosler AccuBond, My brother is a huge fan of the partition. Have killed 3 bulls with a ,280 Rem utilizing a 160 Fail Safe load. They performed flawlessly breaking bone when needed, but are long since discontinued. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claws are impressive but they wont group out of my rifle. I'm thinking the E-tip may be another good choice along with the Swift bullets or the ELD-X. Your results may vary.

LaGriz

 

[Sobrbiker]

Gotta remember that lots of folks that hire guides shoot very little, and though I don’t favor giant calibers to make up for shitty shot placement I can see their angle.
I’d use a 6.5CM on elk, but I also have played the long range competition game for a long time, and do not confuse that with hunting. I’d stick w/in 400yds and be picky about what shot I’d take.
(Just for clarity, I’m not light in the loafers-been shooting 65CM since ‘09)

 

[mtnwrunner]

I'm gonna give ya all my address and you can pass it on to those oufitters so that you can send me your 6.5 ammo. No, really.

Randy

 

[CAElkhunter]

From my experience last year it could be because people show up with their 6.5 that they have been shooting targets with at 1000 yds and want to shoot at an Elk that is 700-1000 yds. They are tired of losing bulls that are
hit at that distance but not killed. All calibers can kill an elk with a well placed shot. The issue rarely talked about is the optimal kill range of calibers. Everyone says heck I have killed many bulls with my 243 or 270.
But they are not taking 600 + yd shots. I had a woman and her husband show up in NM with her $ 15K Gunwerks 6.5 and her husband proclaimed she was going to kill an elk at 950 because it was a 1000 yd gun.
She had never shot it at 1000 yds....that is what outfitters are dealing with.....

 

[204guy]

Calibers don't have optimal or maximum ranges. Bullets do have impact velocity windows where they work best though, and there's a bunch of variables that factor into that.