6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[Northpark]

Be better to have a proficiency test prior to the hunt then limit caliber.


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I know this is America and all and we all want to feel free to hunt but honestly I think the whole proficiency test idea for hunting in general wouldn’t be a bad thing. Wouldn’t really limit who wants to try hunting but would make people think a bit more about practice and making an effort to be a better hunter.

 

[Wrench]

I've had more bang flops with my 6.5 at reasonable ranges than every magnum I own. I credit that to the velocity window of the bullet and the huge sd.

6.5 won't defy physics and be the ass to tea kettle monster a hot 30 with a stout bullet is, but piloted well, its everything you need and nothing you don't.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It shouldn’t be banning the 6.5 guys...

It should be banning guys who buy the rifle and scope, go off of the factory box velocity, make some ballistics “chart” based on false numbers and no field verification, and then shoot at animals they have no business shooting at. Those are the guys who we see that are way too common.

Problem is, there’s no way to verify that they don’t know what they don’t know. So they weed out the majority of them by banning the 6.5 CM crowd.

It’s sad because I’m a huge proponent of lighter cartridges and well placed shots. I’ve killed countless animals with the 129 Grain SSTs out of my .260s over the years.

 

[Rick M.]

I know this is America and all and we all want to feel free to hunt but honestly I think the whole proficiency test idea for hunting in general wouldn’t be a bad thing. Wouldn’t really limit who wants to try hunting but would make people think a bit more about practice and making an effort to be a better hunter.

I think it should be a standard. In Africa you are expected to take a range day with your guide to make sure your rifle is dialed in and you are able to make repeated shots on target. It's just common sense. Americans have fragile egos these days, though, and seem to get offended about everything.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Anyone have any links to the internet discussions in 1925 when the .270 came out? Did guys back then talk about how much better the 30-06 was, or the 300 H&H? I mean, we all know the .270s run is over and it can't kill animals the way it did when our grandpas shot them. I'm not even sure a 30-06 can kill an elk anymore...after 114 years I think they've got it figured out

I'll bet they had the same things to say as we do about the 6.5s. Shoot your creedmores now because in 15-20 years the elk will have the CM figured out too and it won't work anymore.

 

[wyosam]

Be better to have a proficiency test prior to the hunt then limit caliber.


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Yep, there should be a winded, just scrambled up to a point to make the shot with little time to prepare and set up the shot type distance. There can be a separate max for a shot with a lot of set up time available. I know my personal limits are very different depending on the situation.

Give the potential clients a very clear description of the expectation. That will drive some to practice, which is great. Those that don’t put in the time will end up with a short shot limit. Maybe their second trip will be different.


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[LaGriz]

I ran in to a similar bias on my first elk hunt in1994. Our outfitter required us to go to the local range to check zero. I'm pleased that he does this, as he and his guides get to evaluate the hunters shooting abilities. The consensus was that my brother's 7mm Rem. Mag was good elk medicine. When they learned I was shooting a .280 Rem they reacted coolly. "Well, we will try and get you close enough for a shot." It mattered little to them that we both were shooting 160 gr. 7mm bullets. My load was a earth shattering 70 fps slower than my brother's partition. WTF?

On a cow hunt on the Mescalero Res in 2017, I learned of a bullet weight restriction. It seems they require all loads to have minimum of 165 gr. of weight. This eliminates several calibers that don't have bullet weights that high, at least in a factory load. I killed my cow with a 200 grain AccuBond from a .338-06 (DRT) so they may be on to something. On the other hand, I have also taken 3 bulls cleanly with 160 gr. loads from the .280 Rem, including a 1 shot kill. The other 2 were mortally hit but required a follow up shot to put them down or end their suffering.

All of these hits took place at fairly close range. I'm also of the school of thought that hunting industry has been promoting hunters in the direction of long range shooting. This trend IMHO is promoting poorer woodsman ship, in favor of tech advancements. Like many I enjoy reading Wayne Van Zwoll and his super qualified opinion on hunting and shooting. I agree with this author on this subject, and feel we should make every effort to close the distance on game (a skill to be celebrated) whenever possible. This skill should be encouraged more than one's shooting ability at distance.

LaGriz

 

[brsnow]

Old wive’s tales die hard.

 

[txhunter581]

Is the 6.5 an accurate gun for long range “shooting”? Yes

Is the 6.5 a good caliber for elk hunting: yes

if the 6.5 a good caliber for long range elk hunting: NO

 

[VenaticOppidan]

This argument get tired. Reminds me of the white tail crowd. Always have guys saying .22 cals are great deer medicine. “I’ve shot 540 deer with a .223, never even moved. Head and neck shots”

Can you use a 223 or similar caliber to ethical kill whitetail? Yes. Is it the best medicine for whitetail, especially if you have larger calibers available? No. Much larger margin for error.

Also, I’ve found most the people making these claims are all sharpshooters who never miss or wound game. The conditions are always perfect. Crazy, considering I’ve seen people like this shoot, and many are barely proficient inside 100yds off a bench.

Will a 6.5 or 6.5PRC work for elk? Yes. Is it the absolute best medicine, especially if you have other larger calibers available? I would say no.

If that’s all you have you’ll make it work.

I have a 6.5, a 30-06, a 35 rem, as well as a .300win. Next rifle i am going to buy us a 6.5PRC, so I’m by no means against the cartridge.


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[LightFoot]

.264 is elk-adequate, not elk-optimal.

>>>----JAKE----->

 

[Bighorner]

How could these guys that make a living hunting elk possibly know what calibers have been marginal on elk in the past? I'm willing to pay for their expertices on everything but which rifle I use!

 

[TNKnoxville]

Our guide was not keen on 6.5 creed or 6.5 PRC. His son has killed 6 bulls at distances with a 6.5 Creed out to 800 yards cleanly, but he is an excellent shot. Schools long range shooting team. We had one wounded (gut shot) bull shot with a 6.5 PRC at 500 yards and not recovered after a 1.5 day search. Heavy snow ruined the second day tracking. We also had a 6.5 PRC 485 yard one shot kill (excellent hit) on a bull the next day.

Guide opinion was shot placement is key!!!!! He didn't ban them but asked alot of questions on the shooters skills. His thoughts were most people can shoot from a bench, but under actual field conditions can't place a bullet where it needs to go, so bigger helps with bad shot placement. Shots were taken from difficult positions in heavy snow.

Mine was dropped with one shot at 505 yards with a 300 Win Mag, 220 grain ELDX, one bull at 500 yards with a 28 Nosler and one at 400 yards with a 7 mm mag.

Not sure what my opinion is on the 6.5 PRC based on this hunt. I'm sticking with my 300 Win that I am very comfortable shooting.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I think there are many successful kills with 6.5’s, but remember outfitters often are guiding the inexperienced that say they are experienced. With those folks, a caliber with more authority can help.


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Not if they are so scared of their rifle that they cannot hit a stationary 8.5"x11' piece of paper at 100 yards. I see it every freaking year on various hunts.

Far too many people shoot calibers that they are scared to death of but their egos get in the way.

This part is NOT directed towards anyone specifically:
Never understood the religious belief that bigger is always better. But hey, this is America. If you believe that a 338 WM in the animal's butt is ethical and makes for a quicker and cleaner kill, then knock yourself out. But give me the same respect and do not get bitchy when I place a smaller caliber in the animal's lungs.

 

[VenaticOppidan]

Old wise tales die hard.

An old wives' tale is a supposed truth which is actually spurious or a superstition. It can be said sometimes to be a type of urban legend, said to be passed down by older women to a younger generation. Such tales are considered superstition, folklore or unverified claims with exaggerated and/or inaccurate details.


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[brsnow]

An old wives' tale is a supposed truth which is actually spurious or a superstition. It can be said sometimes to be a type of urban legend, said to be passed down by older women to a younger generation. Such tales are considered superstition, folklore or unverified claims with exaggerated and/or inaccurate details.


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Yes, the need for a magnum....

 

[VenaticOppidan]

Yes, the need for a magnum....

I was just making sure you knew it was wives and not wise, figured it was a mis type. But i was floored when i found out it was “play it by ear” and not “play it by year”, which i always thought made no sense


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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

So the 308 Win is a better choice for elk than the 6.5s.

This information is from my rifles (308 Win, 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC):


My 308 Win really is not any better, nor worse, that my 6.5 CM to 300 yards. For all intents and purposes, this holds true to 500. However, once I hit 500 yards my 308 Win can't be used to hunt since that is where it hits 1800 fps (assumed minimum velocity for reliable expansion). But my "wimpy" 6.5 CM still can keep hunting out to 800 yards where it finally hits the 1800 fps threshold.

My 6.5 PRC blows my 308 Win out of the water. But my 308 Win has the edge in diameter!!! I guess where these outfitters are that additional 0.044" in diameter negates the velocity and energy superiority of the 6.5 PRC at all distances.

The outfitters have the right to specify their minimum requirements. As a consumer I have the right to take my business elsewhere if I do not agree with them.

If you can repeatedly and accurately shoot a magnum, then go for. The sad fact is most people cannot. They and their target animals would be better served if they learned to check their egos and use what they shoot well.

 

[brsnow]

I was just making sure you knew it was wives and not wise, figured it was a mis type. But i was floored when i found out it was “play it by ear” and not “play it by year”, which i always thought made no sense


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Thank you, error on my part I guessed and was wrong

 

[Squincher]

So the 308 Win is a better choice for elk than the 6.5s.

This information is from my rifles (308 Win, 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC):
View attachment 234696

My 308 Win really is not any better, nor worse, that my 6.5 CM to 300 yards. For all intents and purposes, this holds true to 500. However, once I hit 500 yards my 308 Win can't be used to hunt since that is where it hits 1800 fps (assumed minimum velocity for reliable expansion). But my "wimpy" 6.5 CM still can keep hunting out to 800 yards where it finally hits the 1800 fps threshold.

My 6.5 PRC blows my 308 Win out of the water. But my 308 Win has the edge in diameter!!! I guess where these outfitters are that additional 0.044" in diameter negates the velocity and energy superiority of the 6.5 PRC at all distances.

The outfitters have the right to specify their minimum requirements. As a consumer I have the right to take my business elsewhere if I do not agree with them.

If you can repeatedly and accurately shoot a magnum, then go for. The sad fact is most people cannot. They and their target animals would be better served if they learned to check their egos and use what they shoot well.

Probably some room for ego checking by those who can't within a 1/4 mile of an animal for a shot, too.