6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Probably some room for ego checking by those who can't within a 1/4 mile of an animal for a shot, too.

To an extent I do agree. However, the terrain and landscape will play a sizable role in determining your actual shooting distance.

 

[204guy]

I've been on a total of 3 outfitted hunts. None for elk. 2 of those 3 outfitters wouldn't know the difference between 6.5 creed and a 6.5 Weatherby. Just like 75% of the guys on this board don't know the difference between cartridge and caliber, but I digress.

My guide on my Alaskan sheep hunt carried a rifle for bear defense a couple days. A 7mm-08. I ask him what its loaded with. 140's he says. I see the rounds and they're 140gr CT ballistic tips, umm okay... Great guide and knew how to kill stuff. Didn't know crap about terminal ballistics. Pretty sure the vast majority of outfitters are going to fall into that category.

This seems like a pretty easy thing to get around, just bring your .260. Even if its the new 260 prc.

 

[SpookySpectre308]

I think it should be a standard. In Africa you are expected to take a range day with your guide to make sure your rifle is dialed in and you are able to make repeated shots on target. It's just common sense. Americans have fragile egos these days, though, and seem to get offended about everything.

Used a guide in Montana this year and we had to go sight in first thing. I think this was a great idea and would have liked to see the range increased to show proficiency.

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[hodgeman]

Archery faced similiar stigma not all that long ago. Guides have personal experiences not related to shooting that color their opinions- mad clients, sad clients, clients not tipping after butt shooting elk. A friend of mine still refuses to guide archery hunters despite personally killing moose with a bow himself.

While the 6.5 is certainly capable, a lot of shooters are certainly not.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Used a guide in Montana this year and we had to go sight in first thing. I think this was a great idea and would have liked to see the range increased to show proficiency.

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Proficiency can go out the window as soon as the crosshairs are on an animal. Proficiency can go out the window after a hard climb and your heart rate is at 160 beats per minute. Proficiency can go out the window if your shooting position is not comfortable. Proficiency can go out the window if you have stimulants (ex: caffeine) in your system.

What if you "fail" this purely arbitrary proficiency test? Do you just go home and eat the cost of the entire hunt? Does the outfitter to give you a full refund?

 

[SpookySpectre308]

Proficiency can go out the window as soon as the crosshairs are on an animal. Proficiency can go out the window after a hard climb and your heart rate is at 160 beats per minute. Proficiency can go out the window if your shooting position is not comfortable. Proficiency can go out the window if you have stimulants (ex: caffeine) in your system.

What if you "fail" this purely arbitrary proficiency test? Do you just go home and eat the cost of the entire hunt? Does the outfitter to give you a full refund?

Guess I didn't consider that you couldn't recreate some of those things?

I saw first hand someone realize as the wind was blowing 30+mph and having to shoot from sticks that their PRC wasn't magically going to make them proficient in those conditions at further ranges. Guess what, their guide got them in close. This isn't a black and white situation. As usual it's on the margin. Nobody needed a refund, nobody went home. Without that 'ill conceived' proficiency test a muley may have been wounded and not killed.

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[6mm Remington]

When I went on a grizzly bear hunt in Alaska last fall we all checked our rifles at 100 yards at base camp before we were flown out to spike camps. That makes sense and should be done by folks traveling long distances with the airline monkeys throwing things around, new hunt elevations, humidity, etc.

Before my trip I got the okay from the outfitter to use my 280AI on my grizzly bear. I shot a hand-load 140 gr. Nosler Accubond. My bear was shot at 158 yards once and died instantly. He spun 180 degrees into the shot, did two somersaults and was dead. He never even twitched after that. Out of 4 hunters who got bears mine happened to be the quickest kill. I know that one fellow had a 7mm STW and one had a 340 Weatherby. I'm not sure what the other hunters had but I had the smallest cartridge of the group.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

So outfitter here.... now I will say it is every business owners choice to deny service to anyone, as a business owner they have put the time and money into their choice.... now coming down to what I see as an outfitter... personally I DO NOT have caliber restrictions, fully guided, drop camp, any of it except for the state regulations. Now I get calls every year what caliber do I suggest? My answer what do you have and what are you most comfortable with? If a guy says well my best weapon is a .243, I will give my honest opinion not the best caliber for an elk but if you can shoot your 243 at 250 yards and hit a dime everytime but ur 375HH you hit 2 out of 4 I’m gonna tell you I’d rather you have the 243. BUT your shot distance will be limited, at that point I find out bullets they are shooting research ft/lbs and velocity and what the bullet requires to perform. That will be your max range idc if the trajectory states 250 yards and the elk is 275 if we can’t close that 25 yards you’re not shooting.

I have guys that show up and screw broadheads on at the ranch straight out of the box, at that point I make them shoot. I’ve had guys show up and say well haven’t shot these bullets yet but stopped at cabelas and the salesman says they are better than the other brand.... we go shoot.

I’m have seen elk lost from many different calibers, if I told guys well we lost a bull with a 7MM so we don’t allow them anymore, I’m gonna lose clients. I also have a rule of 450 yards max IF you practice to that distance. If you haven’t shot that distance idc what the app on your phone says for trajectory you are shooting as far as you have practiced. I have harvested elk with my .270 I’m comfortable with it and can put my best placement with that rifle it’s my old faithful, some say it’s not enough.

I have seen .300’s fail, 7MM, .338 ultra, 6.5, .270, .308, but I’ve seen failure whether personally or from other guides/outfitters on almost every broadhead to. I don’t ban them, but as an outfitter if I said NO mechanicals that’s my choice.

If you don’t like the outfitter said no 6.5 Caliber them either get a different gun or don’t book with him. If your plumber told you he won’t put in this toilet for your house cause he doesn’t deal with them you either take his advice or find a different plumber. That outfitter has his own choice maybe he has seen to many guys not capable of the shots they took BUT instead of cutting out a caliber he should limit distance. I try to make every guy shoot upon arrival. So I know what they can do and what I’m dealing with, you wouldn’t believe the amount of ignorance about gun safety from a 65 yr old that’s been hunting for 50 yrs and same goes for 20 and 30 year olds.


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[bluetick78]

The 6.5 CM and 6.5 PRC are very different animals. A month ago my son and I were on a mule deer hunt, he carried a CM and I carried a PRC. He had put over 200 rounds downrange at rockchucks and steel over the summer with the CM, he also had 80+ rounds downrange from the PRC. He was up first to shoot. We had located a group of bucks the night before and were getting into a position to glass them up when they bumped out of a spot that was unexpected. I ranged them at 544, and my son immediately asked to use the PRC. I handed it over and he set up for the shot quickly. The biggest buck took a few steps and offered his vitals to us broadside. The PRC barked, and the buck fell and slid down the shale, dead. I got behind the same gun, looked the other 7 bucks over, and decided they could grow another year or 2. The CM has limitations, and we decided that 450 yds was as far as we felt it could make a hard, clean kill on a mature Muley. It'll kill further, but we like them dead fast. Rough timberline country isn't a place to have a buck run half a mile before expiring. Outfitters can make whatever rules they feel like, but it's up to the clients to be ready and know their limitations. Some folks forget that you are KILLING a living creature on purpose. Taking a life is a thing that we need to be perfect at, not sloppy and egotistical. If it seems like the shot is too far or too difficult, then it probably is.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

6.5 CM makes accurate shot placement both easy, and required. The problem is when your client doesn't understand terminal ballistics, and wants to try to put a 6.5CM bullet through a front shoulder on an elk that's quartering towards because they can "ring steel" at 600 yds.

As a target shooter first and a hunter second, I understand what the cartridge will and will not do. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there with lots of disposable income and little understanding of:

-ballistics
-marksmanship
-terminal effects
-anatomy

A 300 WinMag is a lot more forgiving in area 3 & 4, and a guide can always tell you what to dial.

 

[WRO]

I honestly hate it when clients bring their own rifles anymore, I can say the the last few year 40% animals have been shot with the guides rifle after the client shit the bed a couple times.

My least favorite saying is, check out my new gunwerks..

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[VenaticOppidan]

I honestly hate it when clients bring their own rifles anymore, I can say the the last few year 40% animals have been shot with the guides rifle after the client shit the bed a couple times.

My least favorite saying is, check out my new gunwerks..

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I would assume that’s due to inexperienced hunters w not a lot of range time who think spending a lot of money or having an app negates need for practice?

When i first went out west 4yrs ago (2016), i did not want to be that guy. I wanted a new rifle so i bought it 18months in advance (when we booked the trip) and got a 300win, i was a 30-06 whitetail guy. I found a range about an hour from my house w a 600 yard range, and used that same rifle for reg season at home as well as several reg tag deer in the spring/summer, and in the neighborhood of about 250 rds fired at distance. Would go shoot in all different weather conditions.

When i landed in Montana i was dialed, verified the rifle w the guide. Then 4 days later shot a muley at 50yds.

 

[Ccm11]

This is the first I’ve heard of it.

 

[Rick M.]

Proficiency can go out the window as soon as the crosshairs are on an animal. Proficiency can go out the window after a hard climb and your heart rate is at 160 beats per minute. Proficiency can go out the window if your shooting position is not comfortable. Proficiency can go out the window if you have stimulants (ex: caffeine) in your system.

What if you "fail" this purely arbitrary proficiency test? Do you just go home and eat the cost of the entire hunt? Does the outfitter to give you a full refund?

I mean... yes, environmental variables can increase the difficulty of a shot. However, that doesn't make a zero and accuracy check 'arbitrary'.

If a client can't be bothered to show that their rifle is zeroed and true and that they are comfortable shooting it at 100 or 200 yards, then I'd say it becomes an ethics call on the part of the outfitter. Do they take the clients money anyways and end up with a wounded animal? That's their call. If I were an outfitter and a client couldn't hit the far side of a barn at 100 yards, then yes, I'd call it off. You can easily have a disclaimer stating that the client should be capable with their weapon of choice for the hunt to move forward, and if such capability can't be met, they lose their deposit and head back home.

 

[Marble]

I’m pretty sure the guides rules are you can use a 6.5 as long as you also don’t have all brand new head to toe Sitka

I heard you could use any 6.5 as long as you don't mention the size of your BC...

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[WRO]

I would assume that’s due to inexperienced hunters w not a lot of range time who think spending a lot of money or having an app negates need for practice?

.

Yup..

Most guys aren't dialed..

Put em behind the big gun, let them jerk the shit out of the trigger on a dry chamber, then roll the bolt and tell them to take their time.

Usually works great.



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[Where's Bruce?]

Nothing wrong with a 6.5CM but for elk a .300WM or 45-70 Govt would top my list. There's no such thing as too much gun.

 

[5MilesBack]

What if you "fail" this purely arbitrary proficiency test? Do you just go home and eat the cost of the entire hunt? Does the outfitter to give you a full refund?

There is no "fail", it just tells the guide what shots he will limit you to. If you can't hit the target at 100, will he let you take 500 yard shots or work to get you a 50 yard shot?

 

[chutinlead]

I think the better test is ask a customer what range they are comfortable shooting and go place a milk jug at that range and tell them to hit it. If they nail it first shot off their backpack, good. If not, maybe reign them in a bit.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

If I were a guide I'd certainly wanna "see for myself" what kinda shot my client was, regardless of weapon choice. The first animal I shot was this bison, put two 45-70 Govt rounds thru it...one in the lungs, the other blew out a 3" section of neckbone. He cartwheeled and was DRT. I got several hundred pounds of meat from this guy.



The processor told me another guy shot a similar sized bull a week before me...he called it the swiss bull because it too was shot with a 45-70 Govt...14 times. The asshat shot it in the butt, the guts, pretty much every place but the vitals. He got a couple hundred pounds of ground outta his bull. He basically destroyed his bison and then wanted to talk about taxidermy! The robe musta looked like a P59 strafed it. Lots of people exaggerate their abilities, I fault no guide/outfitter for double checking. It's a courtesy to the game being hunted IMHO.