2500 Gas or diesel ...

[Daniel_M]

EFI Live is amazing. Best thing to ever hit the diesel world.


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[nflesher]

Hi nflesher can't say I've did a lot of research on diesel pickups, they are not trucks they are pickups with a diesel motor, but after
working on diesel rigs both off highway and class 8 trucks for 30yrs. I've seen a lot of changes. 1999-2000 I worked at a kenworth
dealership and diesels then were not too bad, just had 1 computer, no cats and def. The las 15yrs. were wrenching for a warehouse
company, we ran freightliners and kw's, t800's with both detroits and cummins. With that said, BOY HAVE THINGS CHGD.

Things have changed leaps and bounds in the last 15 years. Gotta love a rattling banging Detroit starting on a cold morning.

To finish this post THINGS HAVE CHGD. the industry wen from obd1 systems, which were ezy to bypass because the obd1 had no way
of knowing what you did to the obd2 system which double checks every part of the emission system. With the oobd2 system all info is fed to the ecm and if any thing doesn't work right including removel of items you get a check engine light and poss limp mode. The only poss
way around this that I lnow of would a new totally reprogramed ecm for the engine but seeing as the engine, trans, and chassis
computers all talk to each other don't know if that would work

Tuning now days allow you to remove "stuff" and tell the ECM all is fine. Electronics are the wave of the future on engines. This is a good thing and a bad thing. Kinda bitter sweet

 

[T43]

I've had several gas and diesel trucks in the past. For me it comes down to the bottom dollar. I average 20,000 miles a year on my truck and I tow an average of 5000 miles a year. My current 2500 gasser gets 16 mpg average unloaded and 10 mpg average towing. With the current gas prices here that's $3450 a year in fuel. I change the oil 3 or 4 times a year for an average of $157 a year for a total gas and oil bill of $3607. My last diesel averaged 19 mpg unloaded and 12 mpg towing. The current fuel price makes that $3136 for fuel and my yearly oil and filter changes averaged about $200 a year for a yearly total of $3336. At less than $300 a year savings in operation costs without including the DEF needed on the new diesels it would take 20 plus years for the diesel to pay for itself.

As far as power I can maintain the posted speed with everything I've put behind my current gasser towing up to 14,600 lbs over 6 - 8% grade passes. If I was towing more than that I would look at a diesel again but towing less than that it doesn't add up. Saving the $6000+ buying a gasser allows me to buy a new truck every few years and I don't lose time and money with an older truck in the shop.

 

[IChaseCoues]

Get the Diesel!
I bet you'll be happier in the long run and they don't cost that much more.
New Cummins oil changes are recommended every 15k miles so only a couple a year for most people. DEF is about $12 every 4k miles so that's less than $100 a year. Fuel will run a little more than gas but they get better mileage so the trade off there is not bad.

I did a lot of math when We purchased our first 07 Cummins MegaCab 4x and the break even came to 67,000 miles between gas and diesel for the same truck. We have put almost triple that on it and have been smiling the whole time! I love the 07-11 Cummins with the full delete kit, 5" exhaust and reprogrammed. These things will flat out git it and when you drive like a sane human being they will get 17-21 mpg depending on setup.
We have 2 of them Mine is a standard and my wife's is an auto. After driving them for a few years I wouldn't buy a standard for most highway driving. Hers will outrun mine on the highway with or without a trailer. I still like mine for off road the way it is set up with bigger mud tires and a standard and lower gears. We also have a '15 with about 40k miles on it. It is slower than the 07's but it will get a delete kit soon to fix that but it will haul an 18,000lb load of beef at 80 without hesitation. It's a much smoother truck with the new suspension and overall way nicer with all the new amenities.

 

[luke moffat]

Get the Diesel!
I bet you'll be happier in the long run and they don't cost that much more.
New Cummins oil changes are recommended every 15k miles so only a couple a year for most people. DEF is about $12 every 4k miles so that's less than $100 a year. Fuel will run a little more than gas but they get better mileage so the trade off there is not bad.

I did a lot of math when We purchased our first 07 Cummins MegaCab 4x and the break even came to 67,000 miles between gas and diesel for the same truck. We have put almost triple that on it and have been smiling the whole time! I love the 07-11 Cummins with the full delete kit, 5" exhaust and reprogrammed. These things will flat out git it and when you drive like a sane human being they will get 17-21 mpg depending on setup.
We have 2 of them Mine is a standard and my wife's is an auto. After driving them for a few years I wouldn't buy a standard for most highway driving. Hers will outrun mine on the highway with or without a trailer. I still like mine for off road the way it is set up with bigger mud tires and a standard and lower gears. We also have a '15 with about 40k miles on it. It is slower than the 07's but it will get a delete kit soon to fix that but it will haul an 18,000lb load of beef at 80 without hesitation. It's a much smoother truck with the new suspension and overall way nicer with all the new amenities.
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Care to share the figures you used to come up with the 67000 miles break even point?

 

[dotman]

Care to share the figures you used to come up with the 67000 miles break even point?

My guess is if neither the gas or diesel break down then that makes sense to me actually but the time injectors fail and adding the cost of a delete kit to actually make a diesel run right are not being included, or even a failed turbo.

I had an 03 cummins that was awesome and I traded it off when the injectors started to act up. I wish I would of just fixed it because it was the best truck I've had. These new diesels with their emissions crap scare me off. I know the weak cp4 pump on a duramax if it fails will cost a minimum of $12k to repair and it has happened to a large number of people not just one or two.

That said I don't tow huge loads, I'm really interested in the duramax midsized Colorado/canyon, even with emissions it is getting real world 32mpg hwy. I would delete it, the transmission is rated to handle almost what a non HO 03 cummins was putting out and the tunes are getting it close to similar performance out of a much lighter truck. It has a larger payload then a 1/2 ton dodge and can pull 7700lbs. Now this could be the savings option over gas, time will tell.

 

[luke moffat]

Still not seeing a 5 mpg average savings paying off an $8k difference for a Diesel engine by only 67000 miles even if gas and diesel are exactly the same price.

15 mpg for $3 gallon gas will have $8000 get you 40k miles.

20 mpg for $3 gallon diesel will get 53000 miles with that same $8k in fuel. I am thinking there is a lot more than just 67000 to pay off the extra price of a Diesel engine.

As such it will take a gas engine an extra $2600 to get to the 53000 mile mark.

So carrying this out it'll cost a gas engine getting 15 mpg roughly $30000 in fuel to reach 150k miles.

A diesel getting 20 mpg will cost only $22500 to get to 150000. Thus that seems much closer to the point the diesel pays for itself fuel wise. Of course assuming maintenance costs on both vehicles being the same as well.

These are the figures I ran roughly when deciding a gas vs Diesel engine. Which is why I am curious to see the above posters figures in finding 67k miles to be the break even point.

 

[Mjm316]

Luke, what are you seeing for mileage out of your 6.0 gas truck? Just trying to compare what I'm getting

 

[backcountry_hunter]

I have never sat down and crunched the numbers for work but I know it's well over 67,000k for a break even point. Of course I can't just take the fuel costs alone into consideration.... repairs, maintenance, etc.... all have to come into play.

 

[5MilesBack]

We have 2 of them Mine is a standard and my wife's is an auto. After driving them for a few years I wouldn't buy a standard for most highway driving. Hers will outrun mine on the highway with or without a trailer.

Not sure what you mean by "hers will outrun mine on the highway". How does an auto outrun the manual on the highway? Once you're at highway speeds, it shouldn't matter.

I've had both an auto and manual F-350 7.3L, and absolutely hated the auto. Of course it was my first auto ever, but hated that thing. There is only one situation where I can see having the auto..........in heavy stop and go traffic. Other than that, I'll take the manual every single time. When passing on the highway, my manual will flat out get up and move even without downshifting......unless towing, then I might have to drop it down.

 

[Daniel_M]

There's no break even. Either you want a diesel, or you absolutely need it.

Most people fall into the "want" category.

If I keep my Duramax long enough to see even a single injector- that's $500 per injector, not to mention the labor. Most never do just one, so there's $6000 for injectors.

If I have a transmission issue, it's going to be very costly. $4000+.

Every 50K Allison flush - $400 using Transnyd including filters.

AMSOIL every 10K $98.

I've done half the glow plug before 75K. There's $200. I've replaced a few wheel sensors, and did the brakes.

I don't see any turbo or injector costs accruing until 150K or so.

But, no other maintenance required thus far.

Tuner, exhaust, intake- ~$1700

Chances are I will pick up a crew cab 6.0, not because I don't like the diesel but rather I've got other hobbies or interests in mind I would rather invest nowadays.


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[dotman]

Luke, what are you seeing for mileage out of your 6.0 gas truck? Just trying to compare what I'm getting

I get 10mpg city and 15mpg hwy.

 

[jmsdad]

N Once you're at highway speeds, it shouldn't matter.

I've had both an auto and manual F-350 7.3L, and absolutely hated the auto. Of course it was my first auto ever, but hated that thing. There is only one situation where I can see having the auto..........in heavy stop and go traffic. Other than that, I'll take the manual every single time. When passing on the highway, my manual will flat out get up and move even without downshifting......unless towing, then I might have to drop it down.

^^^ Spot on...Not fullsize trucks, but I do have 2 same generation Toyota 4Runners--one auto and the other 5speed manual.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

I get 10mpg city and 15mpg hwy.

same here, 14/10 for both of mine, both 3/4's. Relative has an 04 or 03 1500HD that came with 3/4 ton axels and a 6.0 and he's getting the exact same also.....

motor is as solid as they come though. same with their 8.1 but those make a 6.0 look like a camry.

 

[dotman]

same here, 14/10 for both of mine, both 3/4's. Relative has an 04 or 03 1500HD that came with 3/4 ton axels and a 6.0 and he's getting the exact same also.....

motor is as solid as they come though. same with their 8.1 but those make a 6.0 look like a camry.

Yup my brothers company (commercial concrete) has 40+ 6.0's ranging from 2004 - 2016, all get the same mileage, they don't run diesels due to the added maintenance costs and the 6.0 setup is pretty much bullet proof. I will say though I get about 1 mpg better mileage when I'm in CO vs KS

 

[luke moffat]

Luke, what are you seeing for mileage out of your 6.0 gas truck? Just trying to compare what I'm getting

Roughly 16-17 on the highway. Less if I have a 1200 pound 6x6 in my bed.

 

[CaseyU]

Well I am sure I am beating a horse but might as well put some specs up if it could help. I have a 16 ram one ton with the 5.7 hemi. The heaviest thing I tow is a 24ft toy hauler. Fully loaded to about 8500. Truck pulls it great never leaving me wanting more. I average 16.5 ( I live in some rural country with a lot of highway. And if I stick to all highway I can squeeze 18.5 if I am driving nice.

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[Mjm316]

Roughly 16-17 on the highway. Less if I have a 1200 pound 6x6 in my bed.

Wow! Do you know what gears your truck is? My '06 with 4:10s is no where near that.....

 

[IChaseCoues]

Wow, a lot of questions about the 67000 mile break even. I think I assumed 3-4 grand for engine difference in a used truck at the time. Another grand in delete kit with tuner. I do an oil change at about 10,000 miles avg and figured a gas would be at half that and half the cost so they equal out. Fuel was about $.25 to $.50 a gallon more. The main difference at the time was in fuel mileage with the gas getting more like 13 mpg in a gas 4 wheel drive mega cab and 20 in the same truck with a diesel. I only knew of two people that had the gas version and they both said the same mileage. So with that math I guess I was wrong at 67000 miles and it should have been more like 87,000 miles. Sorry I guess I remembered the wrong number. Either way I figured we would have the trucks for more than what number I came up with. The newer gas engines seem to be getting better mileage than the 5.7 hemi did when we looked at them.

As for the maintenance discussed above, it wasn't figured in to any costs as any of the Cummins I've been around haven't needed much in the way of injectors or other costly repairs. Not sure how to figure in those costs since I haven't run into any.

So far as my wife's truck outrunning mine on the highway since hers is an auto it's hard to compare. Hers will flat out fly for being a heavy truck! And pulling a trailer it still runs really well. They have about the same power but hers shifts instantly and doesn't loose speed while shifting. It will spin the 285 tires into third gear if you want it to. Mine does have lower gears and slightly bigger tires so that plays a part I guess.

And in the end yes I really like cummins diesel trucks so that plays a big part.

It would be awesome if when test driving a truck you could pull a trailer loaded to your desired weight. The ability to test drive a loaded truck should make the decision easier, or maybe harder!




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[IChaseCoues]

The newer automatics are really coming along in the towing arena. Put it in tow mode with the exhaust brake on and sometimes have to push the gas pedal to go down hill. They are really good at holding back some weight.


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