.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[fwafwow]

It just goes to show that the people writing the magazines haven't been in the know for a very long time. They learn from and write on whatever marketing companies push at em.

That’s one of the reasons my two NRA magazines go right in the trash.

 

[IDVortex]

That’s one of the reasons my two NRA magazines go right in the trash.

Anything I recieve that has NRA on it goes into the trash.

 

[Blaw]

I haven't used them based on research done here and elsewhere. I was looking at information on the 155's in particular (it may be different for a 108gr 6.5) but my understanding is that projectile expansion and upset is less than expected in most cases. Despite the large hollow cavity behind the meplat I have been reading that they don't open up as violently as I personally would expect from their construction, and that TMK's and ELD-M's expand more readily at lower impact velocities.

The idea of a thin match jacket on a particularly long, medium for caliber bullet with a big ass cavity up front tickles me. I run short rifles because bush bashing in NZ with a suppressed 22" barrel sucks. Gaining some velocity back by running a medium weight bullet with an exceptional BC to offset a 16-18" barrel is what I'd like to do, but I accept that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

ah ya, you and I are in the same boat. except I cant run a suppressor

 

[IDVortex]

ah ya, you and I are in the same boat. except I cant run a suppressor

Is this when I do the same thing to my wifes cousin and let you know I had a suppressor about a mile south of your border and nothing evil happened with it? Though I did feel like I had a bunch of mounties on horse back watching me from a mile away.

 

[Gettincloser]

Alright, up to page 194 and that puts me over the halfway point! (Currently there are 386 pages...) I have a few questions if yall would not mind entertaining me.

1) Why Tikka light/super light? If the mags do not hold the heavy(er) TMK, is there a production rifle with a 1:8 or 1:7.5 twist barrel that they do feed? Even if the rifle has a blind mag vs a detachable box magazine? Or is it simply a well built consistently accurate production rifle that is of low weight?

2) Is it simply that the 77gr TMK is so effective that no one really wants the longer/heavier projectiles?

3) As for elk hunting with a 223 (still blows my mind... but it has been well documented and proven!) Is it taking 2, 3, 4 shots on average to bring them down or are 85%+ one shot and down kills? (Yes, I know of and have seen many magnum hunters put multiple rounds in an elk before they tip over. They are big animals, like a moose, and it can take a moment for blood pressure to drop before they succumb to the injury. Thus allowing time to get off multiple shots in that time window. Ethically, shooting till they drop. Is that more the situation? I would assume they would have less "reaction" to run with a smaller diameter caliber and suppressor to spook them into running but what do I know... I have never shot an elk. But it might be in the cards this year.

4) What is up with the cult following on the fixed 6x scopes? I am a fan of a 2x-10x scope for both magnification on the high end and light gathering at 2x on the low end for shooting in low light for hogs. (Plenty in TX to hunt year round.) Is it simply light weight?

Thank you for the informaymtion and education in advance.

 

[Formidilosus]

1) Why Tikka light/super light? If the mags do not hold the heavy(er) TMK, is there a production rifle with a 1:8 or 1:7.5 twist barrel that they do feed? Even if the rifle has a blind mag vs a detachable box magazine? Or is it simply a well built consistently accurate production rifle that is of low weight?

The factory T3 mags feed the 77gr TMK perfectly. There are no heavier .224 TMK’s. If you want to shoot 75gr and above ELD-M’s a swap to CTR or AI mags is all it takes.

As for why tikka, because unless screwed with, they are ether most consistently reliable and problem free bolt action currently on the market, the action and trigger is fantastic in reliability, and they shoot very well.

No, there are no other current competitors to the T3x.

2) Is it simply that the 77gr TMK is so effective that no one really wants the longer/heavier projectiles?

Answered above. The 77gr TMK is more like the high water mark for terminal ballistics, but others are very good as well.

3) As for elk hunting with a 223 (still blows my mind... but it has been well documented and proven!) Is it taking 2, 3, 4 shots on average to bring them down or are 85%+ one shot and down kills? (Yes, I know of and have seen many magnum hunters put multiple rounds in an elk before they tip over. They are big animals, like a moose, and it can take a moment for blood pressure to drop before they succumb to the injury. Thus allowing time to get off multiple shots in that time window. Ethically, shooting till they drop. Is that more the situation? I would assume they would have less "reaction" to run with a smaller diameter caliber and suppressor to spook them into running but what do I know... I have never shot an elk. But it might be in the cards this year.

If you shoot once and stop, they have the same shot rate as anything else. If animals are still standing or moving, they should keep getting shot. Since 223’s recoil less and are much faster to shoot, elk get on average about one round more than 30cal mags (1-3 versus 2-4) It has everything to do with the capability to shoot faster, not that it is required.

4) What is up with the cult following on the fixed 6x scopes? I am a fan of a 2x-10x scope for both magnification on the high end and light gathering at 2x on the low end for shooting in low light for hogs. (Plenty in TX to hunt year round.) Is it simply light weight?

Because the 6x SWFA is on average a very reliable, extremely simple scope with a good mil reticle that simply works. 6x is plenty to shoot game animals to way beyond the terminal range of the 223. No fussing, no screwing with power, no messing with parallax or “focus”, etc.; just dial elevation, hold wind and shoot.

 

[Gettincloser]

Thank you very much for the well explained answers!

 

[Castle Rock]

I have been doing a fair bit of experimenting lately with the 8 Twist Tikka 223 and 22/250
My AO is about 50 feet above sea level, and the heaviest bullet that I can reliably stabilize up to 900 yards is either a 77 grain TMK or a 77 grain SMK
80.5 Bergers and 80 grain ELDM’s lose stability at about 400 yards
This isn’t to say that they are keyholing, but accuracy goes from a sub MOA to over 2 MOA
The extra 250 fps from the 22/250 doesn’t seem to make a big difference
A mates 7.5 twist barrel is noticeably better but that may be due to other factors so I won’t comment on that

 

[77TMK]

Ran a deer cull in Mississippi this week using the 77 TMK over 24.0 gr TAC from 16” and 18” barrels. Chronographed to 2720 fps from the 18” barrel. Used thermal, nv, and day optics for kills. Tally was around 16 in three nights by myself, but many less than that recovered due to terrain. My goal was to reduce population as they were wiping out crop fields with 20+ head of deer per night per field eating everything down to the stalk. Unrecovered deer were found later by smell, vultures, and fleeing coyotes.


Shots from 20 yards to 415 yards. Anything not CNS meant a run or walk for typically less than 50 yards. Since this wasn’t for meat harvesting most deer were shot twice to ensure a quick kill. Still got some meat and even wrapped backstrap in bacon today for the 4th.

Overall this is a very impressive bullet, but make no mistake that mediocre shots will still yield a long or ultimately failed recovery. Short range shots had very explosive results generally without exit, but on neck hits it was still an exit.

Hydrostatic liquefaction was observed in the handful I harvested meat from in the field. Around an adult hand-size diameter of liquefaction was present with fragments contained within. Some broadside heart shots did exit and there was a water hose amount of blood from entrance and exit holes, all visible under thermal.


For the long, 400+ yard shot, there seemed to be an exit and the deer ran into thick brush with visibly broken shoulder and was doing the blood loss wobble. Was a simple 2.2 mil hold without wind, and impact was very evident. Similar behavior to the 155 ELDM in 308 I used recently for a 430 yard shot, but it was impacting at ~1800 FPS due to a short barrel gun.

Considering the size of southern deer, 77 TMK is a really perfect choice. An existing AR15 with tripler, lpvo, acog, or conventional scope makes for a great deer rifle within 400 yards thanks to good bullets.

 

[Tell]

3) As for elk hunting with a 223 (still blows my mind... but it has been well documented and proven!) Is it taking 2, 3, 4 shots on average to bring them down or are 85%+ one shot and down kills? (Yes, I know of and have seen many magnum hunters put multiple rounds in an elk before they tip over. They are big animals, like a moose, and it can take a moment for blood pressure to drop before they succumb to the injury. Thus allowing time to get off multiple shots in that time window. Ethically, shooting till they drop. Is that more the situation? I would assume they would have less "reaction" to run with a smaller diameter caliber and suppressor to spook them into running but what do I know... I have never shot an elk. But it might be in the cards this year.


I read the thread in its entirety last year around this time, and I decided to try it for myself last hunting season, so my experience is very limited. That said, it was a one shot one kill season for me, but only because of the circumstances. This past year, both animals (deer and elk) took off immediately after the first shot. I was unsupressed. I didn’t have a chance for a follow up shot. Both died within about 50 yards. They went directly from running immediately after the shot was taken to piling up stone dead.

This coming year I will be hunting suppressed, and if their behavior is different and I have any opportunity at making a follow up shot, I’m going to take it. And I’d do so with any cartridge if given the chance. Id just do it faster with the 223 due to the limited recoil and all the practice I’ve had with it.

 

[Clarktar]

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.

---

“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223 is where I ended up after many discussions and objective data regarding bullet performance and numerous pics of field results.

Now for the delivery system. Accurate. Repeatable. Reliable. Reasonable weight to afford steady shot placement and the ability to spot my own impacts yet packable. Tikka T3x, vertical grip, Sportsmatch rings, SWFA 6x MQ in mills. Replaced the trigger spring with a yo Dave, adjusted to my liking, then degreased everything and locked all of the screws down with loctite and got started.

The package checks all of the boxes. Plus, it’s FUN! Time at the range is spent learning to call wind, trigger control, spotting your own impacts and figuring out why a shot did or did not end up where you wanted it. No brake. No flinch. Inexpensive to shoot. The fun factor plus the ability to be able to afford to shoot a lot goes a long way to learning and understanding shooting, accuracy and precision.

With all of that said, I’ve decided to use 77 TMK out of a .223 from this delivery system for bear, deer and elk this season.

Opportunity presented itself a couple of days ago. I killed a mature, dry sow with the 77 TMK. Bullet performance exceeded all expectations! The terminal performance is on par with anything I’ve seen in a .284 or .30. Unreal performance. The bullet is a BEAST!

Practice will continue throughout the summer in preparation for the upcoming deer and elk seasons.

Based on my sample of one, the 77 TMK out of a .223 is truly a lethal combination well suited to a dedicated lower 48 big game rifle.

Would love to hear about others experiences with this bullet or similar bulletts!

Why only lower 48? Are the targets or conditions different outside the lower 48?

 

[77TMK]

Using a suppressor just obfuscates the shot a fair bit, but in day time animals are still as reactive to it as unsuppressed in my experience. If you want a follow-up shot you need to set your kill zone to be predictive of the animal movement once they’re in the middle, and be able to hit runners in that area.

At night, this changes a lot on animals from my experience. They often take an impact and jog a little bit away, then collect themselves a little or walk slowly as they bleed out. Follow-up shots are then limited by your optic resolution, being NV (low and moonlight dependent) or thermal (best but even a 640 res makes PID past 200 hard).

 

[77TMK]

I am on the opposite side from where an ultralight T3X and fixed scope are recommended. Using 223 should reap rewards of the cartridge, and a semi-auto is far nicer to use. A 1MOA performance is plenty adequate for <500 yard kills.

Primary rifle and some recordings off the clipon.

 

[Ajsomp]

Using a suppressor just obfuscates the shot a fair bit, but in day time animals are still as reactive to it as unsuppressed in my experience. If you want a follow-up shot you need to set your kill zone to be predictive of the animal movement once they’re in the middle, and be able to hit runners in that area.

At night, this changes a lot on animals from my experience. They often take an impact and jog a little bit away, then collect themselves a little or walk slowly as they bleed out. Follow-up shots are then limited by your optic resolution, being NV (low and moonlight dependent) or thermal (best but even a 640 res makes PID past 200 hard).

Interesting. I have a different experience with suppressed vs unsuppressed. I’ve watched animals drop next to the rest of the herd and the herd not move. I’ve also seen guys take suppressed shots, miss, and connect on the second shot without the animal moving. I have yet to see that happen unsuppressed. I’ve also seen the entire valley blown out by one shot unsuppressed, and animals a hundred meters away still bedded when shooting suppressed.

Those experiences coupled with hearing protection for myself is why I only hunt suppressed - unless I’m going somewhere I can’t have one. But I understand my experience is only my own and you’ve seen different

 

[SC HUNTER]

@Big_wals that pig you shot is still a good one since it's dead. I've killed hundreds of pigs maybe into the thousands I don't know for sure. We shoot them all the time in peanut fields during the summer here in Southwest Georgia and their not some bullet proof creature people say they are. Hit them where that red dot is and their pushing their face across the ground for a little ways and dead.
*I will shoot them wherever I can hit them if their in the crops.*

 

[77TMK]

Interesting. I have a different experience with suppressed vs unsuppressed. I’ve watched animals drop next to the rest of the herd and the herd not move. I’ve also seen guys take suppressed shots, miss, and connect on the second shot without the animal moving. I have yet to see that happen unsuppressed. I’ve also seen the entire valley blown out by one shot unsuppressed, and animals a hundred meters away still bedded when shooting suppressed.

Those experiences coupled with hearing protection for myself is why I only hunt suppressed - unless I’m going somewhere I can’t have one. But I understand my experience is only my own and you’ve seen different

I think a big factor here is these deer have heard a lot of suppressed shots already. In one herd of 20 ish in a field, only half moved after one round from my Mk12 with an AEM5. The other half just loitered. This was a day time shot as well. For night time thermal use those that loitered just turned into 3-4 kills in quick succession.

Also I wear sordins or comtacs when shooting suppressed ARs. The port pop is almost as loud as a gunshot itself. There are no hearing safe AR can setups without something like 300 BLK subsonics. Suppressed bolt gun without earpro? Generally not needed for a handful of shots.

 

[robtattoo]

In central TX we do not get many deer over 200#. Hogs on the other hand, we have had above 290 (3x) but never broke 300#. This sounds like a fun setup to hunt hay fields for the deer/hog/coyote.

I have seen hog pictures but I have not seen "big" hog pictures. Are they carrying them off, people are not talking about it? I wouldn't think that big hogs are tougher than moose... but they can have a 2-3" thick shield outside the shoulder. Not sure about moose hide/shield... feel free to educate me with regard to big hogs as well.

*At this rate, I will get to the end of this thread in the next 6 months!

Not a .223/5.56 kill, so not in this thread, but here's 428lb of porcine goodness that fell to a 110gr in the shoulder from my .300blk (which is arguably crap by comparison)

 

[rbrettallen]

I haven't used the 77 TMK, but the 75 Swift Scirocco II has given me very very good results

I'll second that....

 

[WestTN2288]

I am on the opposite side from where an ultralight T3X and fixed scope are recommended. Using 223 should reap rewards of the cartridge, and a semi-auto is far nicer to use.

X2

 

[Ozarkansas]

I am on the opposite side from where an ultralight T3X and fixed scope are recommended. Using 223 should reap rewards of the cartridge, and a semi-auto is far nicer to use

I’m in the same boat here. I wouldn’t turn down a .223 T3x, but in the land of 6 deer tags and unlimited pigs where shots seldom exceed 100 yards, a light AR is tough to beat.