.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[sveltri]

I may be odd man out here, but I have never cared about or relied on blood trails in all of my rifle hunting, I can’t recall trying to get on one aside from a couple misses as a precaution before walking away

The vast majority of my hunting is done within 2 miles of the ocean on the Oregon coast in the really bad brush zone (a few miles east it gets a little better in general)

Blood trails have never seemed very reliable with a bullet ime, though sometimes I will be surprised with just a mess. That aspect of the 223 doesn’t bother me at all, and I figured my experience was a generalization, but I see it’s not

One thing I have always valued a lot is getting back on target fast, my first rifle critter was a blacktail buck that I shot in the base of the neck and watched him fall faster than gravity in the scope (first rifle I bought was a 7-08 and put a fixed 4x leupold on it)

That has stood out to me for ever, but I will always pick 2 bullets on target vs a blood trail with a firearm

Bear are the only critters that I would like a blood trail on, and coincidentally they are the least likely to get one regardless, but they are always close to a complete shithole and don’t stand around dazed like deer and elk when shot, they haul ass into the worst habitat around and don’t leave as defined tracks like a hooved animal, but it doesn’t seem to matter what you shoot them with, they either barely bleed or create a horror scene, but if the shot is good, you can be pretty confident they aren’t far, they have no will to live with damaged lungs… also why I don’t get fancy on shot angles with bear, I want a good angle on both lungs, and they need to be static or I’m not shooting… a wounded bear in dense brush is over rated, I have been there and don’t care to repeat it (and it was a braked rifle and in that situation I couldn’t wear ear pro and had to shoot that rifle twice without ear protection)

I’m not too concerned about blood trails, I’ve never expected them with a rifle, but I do value well placed shots, staying on target and fast follow up shots.

Unfortunately a 223 isn’t legal for elk here, so I need to figure out something else for my daughter, I’m thinking a compact rokstok and either rebarreling my 308 to a 6creed or getting her an 8 twist 243 and keeping the 308 (most likely) but she’ll be using my 223 for spring bear, and I’ll be using it for all of my rifle hunting

Same boat here in CO, I’ve got an 8 twist tikka 243 transitioning into 243 ai as we speak.

 

[roosiebull]

Same boat here in CO, I’ve got an 8 twist tikka 243 transitioning into 243 ai as we speak.

Caliber affirming care

 

[Steve300xcw]

I may be odd man out here, but I have never cared about or relied on blood trails in all of my rifle hunting, I can’t recall trying to get on one aside from a couple misses as a precaution before walking away

Same here, not something I have worried about. Only blood trail that was actually impressive was from a grendel lol. I will add that most things when shot properly dont require any tracking

 

[roosiebull]

Same here, not something I have worried about. Only blood trail that was actually impressive was from a grendel lol. I will add that most things when shot properly dont require any tracking

Off the top of my head, I can only recall long track jobs on 2 rifle shot bear, one recovered after a sketchy encounter in the brush the next morning, and one wasn’t recovered… of all the deer and elk I’ve seen shot, I don’t recall a single long track job… there may have been one in there somewhere, but I can’t recall it.

I have seen a few less than perfect first shots, but have always ended in a fairly quick follow up to get things back on track

I have seen a couple rodeos, but the animals didn’t make it far, but It just wasn’t pretty and efficient… maybe the next critter I shoot will mess up that role, but I know if so, it won’t be the cartridge’s or bullet’s fault.

The more I shoot the tikka 223, the more I feel like it will be hard to miss. Reminds me of a 17hmr… just can’t miss

 

[Steve300xcw]

Off the top of my head, I can only recall long track jobs on 2 rifle shot bear, one recovered after a sketchy encounter in the brush the next morning, and one wasn’t recovered… of all the deer and elk I’ve seen shot, I don’t recall a single long track job… there may have been one in there somewhere, but I can’t recall it.

I have seen a few less than perfect first shots, but have always ended in a fairly quick follow up to get things back on track

I have seen a couple rodeos, but the animals didn’t make it far, but It just wasn’t pretty and efficient… maybe the next critter I shoot will mess up that role, but I know if so, it won’t be the cartridge’s or bullet’s fault.

The more I shoot the tikka 223, the more I feel like it will be hard to miss. Reminds me of a 17hmr… just can’t miss

I've had 2. Made a bad shot on a bear an never found it, I dont think caliber woulda mattered there....And had a rodeo with a buck a a 243. Considering the hole in the bottom of that SOB it shoulda bled....ALOT.....but it didnt..


Also for your kid look at brownells. Howa mini barreled action in 6arc/grendel/whatever. Would make a sweet lil rifle in a CF stock.....

 

[northernalpine]

Took a while to work my through all of this thread; impressive collection of data and logical approach to using a smaller caliber matched with ballistic parameters for a variety of game.

Thanks to all those that posted pics, load data, links, and humor…”mouse turds” and “tacos” has kept a smile on my face for a couple of days now.

 

[roosiebull]

I've had 2. Made a bad shot on a bear an never found it, I dont think caliber woulda mattered there....And had a rodeo with a buck a a 243. Considering the hole in the bottom of that SOB it shoulda bled....ALOT.....but it didnt..


Also for your kid look at brownells. Howa mini barreled action in 6arc/grendel/whatever. Would make a sweet lil rifle in a CF stock.....

I recall another situation, which led me to getting my first 223 (sig m400 predator)

I called in a lion one afternoon, he came all the way to the call through a little band of salmonberry and I didn’t see him until it was sneaking back up the hill away from me.

It was 37yds, federal fusion out of my kimber 7-08, super steep hill, so the shot angle was like shooting straight down from a tree stand, I aimed just left of spine, right behind the shoulder blade, exit would be right between the front legs

I took the shot, and it went straight down and started rolling around in the brush snarling, this is where inexperience at the time got me, I just watched waiting for him to quit moving rather than racking the bolt (I knew better but didn’t) and all of a sudden he comes out of the brush, paused for a second, then trotted off as I worked the bolt

I assume I shot at 6:30-ish in the evening, late April. I hurried across the draw to see if I could catch it moving off.

Below me was a big swamp, and in this section of swamp it was solid 7’ saw grass with reprod on one side and solid salmonberry on the other

When I got over there I heard something rustle a little by a dead alder about 50yds out in the swamp, but didn’t know if it was the lion I shot, birds, beaver, etc… it wasn’t much

Now I go back to look for blood, thinking I must have an exit, I go back to where it was and I see no blood, but it reeks like cat piss (go figure)

I get on the track and follow it down to the edge of the swamp, mark that spot then watch the swamp edge to see if I can get lucky and catch its tracks (not looking forward to wading around in the zero visibility saw grass with only a bolt gun)

I walk that trail, it’s pretty soft and the cat just didn’t go that way, so back to the trail I marked hoping to find blood

Long story short I walked around that swamp until dark and didn’t find any sign of the cat, it stormed that night but I already knew I didn’t have a blood trail

I came back the next day and gridded the whole swamp for 8hrs using my tracker on onX, then walked every trail I could find on both sides… nothing

I looked every day for 6 days, last night I was on my way down to the south coast for a work stretch where I would be on the ocean for a week…

I glassed from the top looking for birds and listening like I had every day, then dropped down into the swamp like I had every day… as soon as I got down there I flushed a couple buzzards… there were 2 half circling and one that didn’t want to leave that same dead alder I heard something by, but I had focused that first night and next morning there… couldn’t be, I scoured that area.

What I couldn’t see was as I walked each side of that creek, there was a little 6’ island, so I thought I covered both sides of the creek right there thoroughly, but that cat ended up dying right there on a little tiny island, and with it all being over head high saw grass, I just couldn’t see there was a little island there, I had track lines within 5’ on all sides, but with the terrain I couldn’t see that there was a coffin size island.

The bullet went in, clipped the back of the scapula, and the bullet got caught in the hide inside the right leg… I didn’t cut it open to see if I got one lung or 2, but it made it 111yds from the shot… a blood trail would have really helped me there… worst case scenario got me there, but instantly chambering another round would have completely changed the outcome, such a dumb mistake I’ll never make again, now it’s instant, I don’t care if it dumps in the scope, I am running the bolt just in case

I did switch to an AR for lions after that for awhile, and the next big Tom I called in I lit up, I put 4 rounds in him before he could do anything, 77gr smk’s, and he didn’t get far.. 3 were in the chest cavity then one steep quartered away shot as he tried to flee, and I knew he was toast, which was nice because it was zero visibility dog hair reprod tracking, and I was glad to not have a maybe dead big ass lion to track

For reference, this is the swamp

 

[Hondo64d]

Shot a small whitetail doe this evening at 413 yards with a 77gr TMK launched at 2978 fps from my .22GT. Mild load. Impact velocity should have been about 2125 fps. Double lung shot. Bullet hit a rib on the way in and on exit. Damage to lungs was substantial. External exit wound in the hide was about nickel sized. She ran 50 yards, wobbled for a few seconds and called it quits. I didn’t investigate the blood trail because I saw where she fell and went right to her, but she was spraying a significant amount of blood where she fell. Below are pics of internal entrance and exit.

John

 

[MT-nuffgun]

Well I read the whole thread. Now I am wondering what it would cost to get my
CZ 527 American rebarreled to a .223 1:8 twist or maybe even a .223 AI. I have killed a few whitetails with it over the years with 55 and 60 gr SP’s but these 77 TMKs seem to be the ticket. I guess I am going to have to do some investigating.

 

[Towhee]

I never would have predicted the damage seen in this thread to be the work of a .223.

If it works it works. Imho never any sense in taking more recoil than you have too for an application. I'd tote a .223 for deer and antelope.

 

[salar]

Hi all. Long time listener first time caller. Got into hunting just over a year ago (Dec. 2022). It's been quite a journey. Initially bought a Tikka 6.5 CM and brought it on my first "big game" hunt for Sitka Blacktail. After blowing the shit out of a couple of those deer and losing a bunch of meat started thinking about something smaller. On that same trip met a guy who hunts Sitka’s with a .223. Shortly after I got home ordered a 5.56 Ruger American Ranch. Eventually found this thread and as 77 TMK factory ammo is not readily available here in Canada decided to shoot the 73 eld m. Fortunately, it shot well under sub MOA!! Since then, this combo (between myself and a few friends) has put down over a dozen blacktail. The furthest I have had one go is less than 10 feet! Fast forward to this November. Long story short went on a group hunt where I had no intention of shooting a moose with this rifle (just brought it along for fun as I was up the last time we went out but one of the guys in my group forgot the key to his lock so 2 rifles between 3 of us). My partners and I went to opposite ends of the bog and unfortunately/fortunately the moose came my way. First saw the animal at 200 yds, not huge but still a bull moose. After reading the whole thread I was "confident" the bullet would do the work but still had some reservations so called him into 110 yds. Put the 1st shot behind the shoulder. The animal stumbled and I knew he was mortally wounded but as I was still a hesitant (.223 and new to hunting after all) and didn't want to track a moose though a bog known to be crawling with G bears so made a follow up shot. The animal didn't move more than 3 steps before falling over. 1st shot was perfectly broad side and second was rushed and ended up clipping the front shoulder resulting in a baseball sized hole and a bunch of lost meat. Both bullets were recovered in the offside hide. 1st performed perfectly (great expansion) and I think the one that hit the front shoulder ended up separating from the jacket. Needless to say .223 works. Sorry about the quality of the photos wasn’t too concerned about taking pics (see G bear comment above). Would I purposefully shoot a moose with a .223 again...maybe not. Not because of the performance just to have a little more confidence and range. Ideal gun for Sitka’s though and maybe eventually a mountain goat at close range! Pic of my goat shot with 6.5 just to rub it in!! Sorry...

 

[SBR Sarge]

I know I’ve seen it in here but can’t remember. What impact velocity am I needing with the 77 gr TMK?

I might have to take my 10” Noveske into a rifle area for deer next year.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Well I read the whole thread. Now I am wondering what it would cost to get my
CZ 527 American rebarreled to a .223 1:8 twist or maybe even a .223 AI. I have killed a few whitetails with it over the years with 55 and 60 gr SP’s but these 77 TMKs seem to be the ticket. I guess I am going to have to do some investigating.

Arent those a 1:9?

 

[MT-nuffgun]

Arent those a 1:9?

I think the varmint models were, but the American is a 1:12.

 

[swavescatter]

I know I’ve seen it in here but can’t remember. What impact velocity am I needing with the 77 gr TMK?

I might have to take my 10” Noveske into a rifle area for deer next year.

Safe zone is above 1800fps.

 

[Crete]

I use my .223 on roe when I can.
I use nosler 60gr ballistic tips. They pack a fair punch.
I just try to be careful to not hit major bones such as shoulder/spine or it makes a big hole and damages a lot of meat.
although no more damage than most other calibre's.

The only reason I don't use it all the time is because I usually take my .308 so I can shoot a red if the opportunity arises.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Alright guys, I'm gearing up to grab my first Tikka. I've read this whole thread in little bits at a time but I want to verify I didn't miss some important detail.

If I plan to handload either way, is there no downside to a 1/8 22-250 vs the 223?

Pretty much just makes a 600yd RSS correct?

 

[swavescatter]

Alright guys, I'm gearing up to grab my first Tikka. I've read this whole thread in little bits at a time but I want to verify I didn't miss some important detail.

If I plan to handload either way, is there no downside to a 1/8 22-250 vs the 223?

Pretty much just makes a 600yd RSS correct?

I imagine downsides would be ammo/brass availability, barrel life, slight recoil, powder cost if reloading. But otherwise yeah it just extends the range I believe. I'm still mulling over whether to turn my 243 into a 22 or 6 creed, but I have considered the 22-250.

 

[atmat]

I imagine downsides would be ammo/brass availability, barrel life, slight recoil, powder cost if reloading.

I would agree and also say the combined downside of all of those is less practice, which is probably the most important piece.

 

[xsn10s]

Alright guys, I'm gearing up to grab my first Tikka. I've read this whole thread in little bits at a time but I want to verify I didn't miss some important detail.

If I plan to handload either way, is there no downside to a 1/8 22-250 vs the 223?

Pretty much just makes a 600yd RSS correct?

I've been debating between the .223 vs the 22-250. Since I have brass and dies for both the difference comes down to powder. Both availability and charge weights. It seems like the it's a difference of ten grains of powder between the two. But .223 powder seems easier to get as are SRP, for now. It's a toss up and I lean towards the .223/ 5.56.