.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Billy Goat]

Here is why I am posting: Has anyone used a custom barrel with a long freebore so you can get your 77TMK or whatever 223 bullets you are using out of the case to make room for more powder? Basically that is what we do. Maybe it is not necessary to go any faster? Mike

The question becomes reliability, and why not choose a different caliber if you want that speed.

Feeding will be a little more problematic for a hunting rifle if you are hanging them way out. Some guys are using different mags so they can have a little longer coal.

The idea is a delivery system that's easy, if you want to get more velocity it's easy to go that route with a 22 creed or a custom twist 22/250. I was wrapped up in trying to get a little more velocity myself, and thought I'd go 223AI, but then realized that was defeating part of the purpose. The velocity I'm getting with basic powder charges and 77tmk gets me to 470ish yards with 1800 fps, all that I need. I don't intend to use this gun/load but to 450 at the very max for hunting, so it's already doing everything I need. Time/energy is better spent on shooting rather than trying to improve it.

 

[Sadler]

I have been reading this thread on and off for weeks. I and a few others have been using a 223 bolt action rifle in long range (800-1000 yards sling and iron sights- it’s called a palma rifle) competition for several years. In the matches we shoot, you are required to shoot a 308 with a 155 or a 223 with up to a 91g bullet. I mostly shoot 80g ELDM or 90g Bergers. My 80’s are going 3120fps and shoot inside a 308 with a 155 going 3020. I have a long freebore about .195 and my oal on my 80’s is about 2.550. Our barrels for these rifles are 30-32”, so keep that in mind when looking at my velocity.

Here is why I am posting: Has anyone used a custom barrel with a long freebore so you can get your 77TMK or whatever 223 bullets you are using out of the case to make room for more powder? Basically that is what we do. Maybe it is not necessary to go any faster? Mike

I extended the freebore on my tikka barrel so I could seat the 77tmk out a bit further. Not exactly sure how much freebore but the OAL 2.4 with a 20k jump. Shoots the 77s at 2800 FPS out of a 16” barrel with a max load of N540.

 

[MichaelC]

The question becomes reliability, and why not choose a different caliber if you want that speed.

Feeding will be a little more problematic for a hunting rifle if you are hanging them way out. Some guys are using different mags so they can have a little longer coal.

The idea is a delivery system that's easy, if you want to get more velocity it's easy to go that route with a 22 creed or a custom twist 22/250. I was wrapped up in trying to get a little more velocity myself, and thought I'd go 223AI, but then realized that was defeating part of the purpose. The velocity I'm getting with basic powder charges and 77tmk gets me to 470ish yards with 1800 fps, all that I need. I don't intend to use this gun/load but to 450 at the very max for hunting, so it's already doing everything I need. Time/energy is better spent on shooting rather than trying to improve it.

I understand what you mean about it being simple and that is probably best. I have three rifles set up for shooting with the long freebore; two are single shots but one is a repeater I goof around with and use for shooting some other fun matches (in fact it may become my hunting rifle action). I used MDT poly mags that I simply took a round file and relieved the inside front of to get my OAL and it feeds perfectly in a stock Remington 700 that sits in a chassis. Here is a pic of on 80ELD next to a Berger 73g. If I took them to my machinist/gunsmith he could do a cleaner job. But it works just fine.

 

[robtattoo]

I have done the same cuts on AICS mags. I can run a 75gr ELD into a factory tikka out to just shy of 2.6" before hitting the lands. They feed just fine

Same for me in my little Ruger American. I load at 2.4 though, for best accuracy at 2760fps

 

[Marbles]

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

You SOB, you baited me and now I have read all 229 pages of the thread.

It is going to cost me some money. It will also bring forward the age at which my daughters can hunt big game. I would rather a 223 they can shoot be in there hands if they meet a bear than nothing, or a larger bore they cannot shoot. Plus that 223 trainer I have been putting off getting will be more useful than I though. It is also nice to know the 5.56 NATO I have on hand should be fine in my Tikka.

The TMK design is one of the least likely to deflect with an angled skull strike in a .224 bore based on Hornady TAP data. Based on that same data a .224 bore is more likely to deflect than a larger bore shooting the same bullet in a heavy for caliber configuration. This is due to increased mass resulting in higher momentum. Hornady says a .22 will have 3 to 4 times greater deflection angles than a .30. (Edit: this is with passing through glass, I don't see why the similar would not apply to glancing off at steeper angles.)

Bullet design still matters when it comes to deflection.

Other than deflection, I don't think penetration would be an issue (and at first, as reflected in my previous posts, straight penetration was my concern).

This is not a thread on bear defense, so I will stop here.

 

[PNWGATOR]

You SOB, you baited me and now I have read all 229 pages of the thread.

It is going to cost me some money. It will also bring forward the age at which my daughters can hunt big game. I would rather a 223 they can shoot be in there hands if they meet a bear than nothing, or a larger bore they cannot shoot. Plus that 223 trainer I have been putting off getting will be more useful than I though. It is also nice to know the 5.56 NATO I have on hand should be fine in my Tikka.

The TMK design is one of the least likely to deflect with an angled skull strike in a .224 bore based on Hornady TAP data. Based on that same data a .224 bore is more likely to deflect than a larger bore shooting the same bullet in a heavy for caliber configuration. This is due to increased mass resulting in higher momentum. Hornady says a .22 will have 3 to 4 times greater deflection angles than a .30. (Edit: this is with passing through glass, I don't see why the similar would not apply to glancing off at steeper angles.)

Bullet design still matters when it comes to deflection.

Other than deflection, I don't think penetration would be an issue (and at first, as reflected in my previous posts, straight penetration was my concern).

This is not a thread on bear defense, so I will stop here.

HIGHLY recommend the T3x Compact .223 cut and suppressed paired with a SWFA 6x milquad mil/mil in UM rings for your daughter.

Truly the easy button.

 

[Marbles]

HIGHLY recommend the T3x Compact .223 cut and suppressed paired with a SWFA 6x milquad mil/mil in UM rings for your daughter.

Truly the easy button.

Looking at Tikka's site, the compact does not appear to come in stainless. Does that sound correct?

 

[roosiebull]

That said, I don’t personally know anyone who makes decisions about hunting rifles based on the chance of a point blank grizzly charge

That’s really my only criteria when picking a cartridge. I have never seen a grizz and will not hunt around them much in my life, but boy howdy… if I ever hunt somewhere they exist (on a rifle hunt) and said bear charges, I will be prepared… well, not me per se, but my cartridge…

 

[PNWGATOR]

Looking at Tikka's site, the compact does not appear to come in stainless. Does that sound correct?

Yes, that is correct.

If you want stainless, you’d need to find a take off T3x compact stock someone has outgrown and are replacing.

You could have the blued gun completely nitride coated.

 

[Reburn]

You could have the blued gun completely nitride coated.

Thats a sexy idea.

Pretty sure this is who jake Moo-shaney mentioned on the shoot2hunt podcast that Unknown Munitions uses.

H&M Blacknitride+™ | The New Standard in Steel Hardening

 

[Marbles]

Yes, that is correct.

If you want stainless, you’d need to find a take off T3x compact stock someone has outgrown and are replacing.

I will figure something out with the stock, for now I will be the primary shooter and I have a year or two to figure it out.

You could have the blued gun completely nitride coated.

I have told myself I was going to do this, but never figured out the details as I have trouble finding a place to do it. Peter's Heat Treat perhaps?

As it stands, I have a stainless T3x Lite coming from Eurooptic. I would love to nitride my stainless guns too, perhaps some day.

 

[PNWGATOR]

I will figure something out with the stock, for now I will be the primary shooter and I have a year or two to figure it out.

I have told myself I was going to do this, but never figured out the details as I have trouble finding a place to do it. Peter's Heat Treat perhaps?

As it stands, I have a stainless T3x Lite coming from Eurooptic. I would love to nitride my stainless guns too, perhaps some day.

Unknown Munitions offers nitride coating.

 

[Reburn]

Unknown Munitions offers nitride coating.

This is who they use.

H&M Blacknitride+™ | The New Standard in Steel Hardening

 

[roosiebull]

Bullshit
No one is that dumb

You should spend a year living on the Oregon coast and drive hwy 101 every day, it would be eye opening.

I can assure you that you will be humbled by that statement

 

[cjones87]

Question for you guys using the 77tmk. Has anyone used them on prairie dogs? Reason i ask is i reload using the 75 amax/ elds. And they work great on prairie at distance and up close.

Going out next year with a couple buddies that don't reload and looking for a factory option for the heavy 223. Only thing I'm finding is hornady ammo with the73 eld. And federal with the 77tmk.

I would rather try the federal because it will likely be more consistent than the hornady ammo. But I'm worried that it won't expand fast enough on prairie dogs and they'll have alot of ricochets.

I saw unknown munitions makes 223 with the 75 eld but their outta stock at the moment.

If anyone knows of another factory ammo let me know please. Thanks for the help.

 

[BLJ]

Same for me in my little Ruger American. I load at 2.4 though, for best accuracy at 2760fps

You’re using AICS mags in your RA? Not AR, correct?

 

[robtattoo]

You’re using AICS mags in your RA? Not AR, correct?

Yessir, that's correct.

 

[Kenny Hart]

This whole thread has me rethinking a rifle for my daughters. Was worried about recoil, but I may have to kill a few pigs with the AR this fall to prove it to myself that all they need is a 223 Tikka and some 77 grainers!

Looks very impressive, much better than the few animals I've killed/seen killed with Speer Gold Dot bonded bullets....they were extremely effective but made such a small wound channel that I bumped back up to 308.

 

[BLJ]

Yessir, that's correct.
View attachment 608760

I thought that was the case but couldn’t remember. I knew you had done some hacking and wasn’t sure what you came up with.
I like that rifle.

 

[mtnwrunner(Trandy)]

Question for you guys using the 77tmk. Has anyone used them on prairie dogs? Reason i ask is i reload using the 75 amax/ elds. And they work great on prairie at distance and up close.

Going out next year with a couple buddies that don't reload and looking for a factory option for the heavy 223. Only thing I'm finding is hornady ammo with the73 eld. And federal with the 77tmk.

I would rather try the federal because it will likely be more consistent than the hornady ammo. But I'm worried that it won't expand fast enough on prairie dogs and they'll have alot of ricochets.

I saw unknown munitions makes 223 with the 75 eld but their outta stock at the moment.

If anyone knows of another factory ammo let me know please. Thanks for the help.

No prairie dogs but I shoot rockchucks fairly extensively. This year my closest shot was 108 yards and longest was 757.
Both with black hills 77 tmk and hornady frontier 75 grain match bthp. Both are devastating.

Randy