.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[packgoatguy]

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

It also bears pointing out that this combo (the 77grtmk/223) is yardage dependent. "Form" may have taken animals out beyond 450 yards with it, but he has noted a number of times across several different threads that he recommends the tmk/223 combo out to 450 yards.

However, he further clarifies this with his own personal minimum velocity criteria of 1800fps impact velocity

"As long as I achieve 1,800fos at the range I require, I want as short as possible. If it doesn’t hit 1,800fps at range, than I go bigger cartridge"

Which he has further clarified usually correlates to a 22 inch factory length tikka 1/8 twist barrel... using 8208xbr hand loads, getting 2840fps MV.

However, if you do the math, that MV coupled with the BC of the 77gr tmk, at 450 yards is actually 2000fps impact velocity (which implies that when Form makes his recommendations, he is adding in a 200fps minimum velocity buffer). Personally, I feel more comfortable with a 2000fps minimum velocity threshold for ANY bullet I shoot, and some I would argue would need even higher minimum velocities (like some monos, which also has been pointed out a number of times here). Perhaps the tmk CAN perform adequately down to 1800fps, or even less... but anomalies are limited with a higher self imposed minimum.

So... the point here...

If your .223 has a shorter barrel length than the standard proposed here, then velocity will be reduced, and the max reliable range is reduced.

For example, if your 22inch tikka can produce 2840fps with your handloads, then a 16 inch AR barrel might only produce 2600fps with the same load... so if the max range with the 2840fps is 450 yards, then the max range to get the same impact velocity (starting at 2600fps) would be reduced to 325 yards.

However, if you are limited to factory 77tmk ammo (as many new hunters dont reload) you might only get 2750fps with your 22inch barrel, your max range by comparison is reduced to 400 yards... and the 16 inch barrel velocity is likely reduced to around 2550fps, and your max range reduces to 300 yards.

Then consider... perhaps you are like many, and you can't find 77tmk... so you decide to shoot 73eldm hornady match factory ammo. I can personally get about 2725fps out of my 22 inch tikka... which hits my 2000fps impact velocity threshold at about 375 yards at my temp/elevation... out of a 16 inch barrel, this bullet combo drops to around 2500fps... which means a 265 yard max range with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold.

Of course... if you are comfortable imposing a lower minimum velocity threshold... say 1900 or 1800fps, then you can add yardage.

By comparison,

The readily available 147gr match hornady ammo out of a 6.5 creedmoor (with its much higher BC) will give you around 2700fps out of a factory tikka, which gets to 635 yards with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold. If your 16 inch barrel gets 2500fps MV, then it doesn't fall below 2000fps impact velocity until beyond 465 yards.

So, yes... a 77tmk could be a good option for some... within certain yardage and velocity constraints... but other light-recoiling alternatives exist that offer ballistic advantages and extended range by comparison.

Personally, I hunt in open country out west, where an experienced shooter could reasonably expect shot opportunities out to 600 yards (my own self imposed limit) and beyond... and so if I want a shorter barreled rifle to pack around... I'm going to likely reach for one that can lob bullets with a higher BC.

 

[cmahoney]

You guys see these?

HOWA HOWA BARRELED MINI ACTION 223REM BL STANDARD 22" 1/2X28 T/C | Brownells

Howa 1500 Barreled Actions are the perfect platform for a quality precision rifle build, at an affordable cost. Every Howa Barreled Action ...

www.brownells.com

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[packgoatguy]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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Not a bad approach IMO. Please post your results. Should be interesting to compare with posts on other forums that claim bullets like the 88eld and 108eld make tiny entrance holes and no exits on coyotes out to 300 yards and under. (Would be Ideal performance if you are hunting "fur" but maybe not ideal if you want exit wounds and blood trails??)

 

[BBob]

You guys see these?

I have one and so do several others around here. Add a Stocky’s carbon second stock and it’s cheap. Someone is selling a factory plastic stock here for $75ish too.

 

[cmahoney]

I have one and so do several others around here. Add a Stocky’s carbon second stock and it’s cheap. Someone is selling a factory plastic stock here for $75ish too.

Have they always been 8 twist barrels?


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[beerbucksducks]

Not a bad approach IMO. Please post your results. Should be interesting to compare with posts on other forums that claim bullets like the 88eld and 108eld make tiny entrance holes and no exits on coyotes out to 300 yards and under. (Would be Ideal performance if you are hunting "fur" but maybe not ideal if you want exit wounds and blood trails??)

Will do once I am no longer handicapped by a 14 twist .223. Most of my coyote killing lately has been with .204, .243 and for 6.5 on longer stuff. But I have seen a fair amount of 50 gr. .223 bullets (NBT, Sierra SP) exit coyotes sub 300.


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[ARK_Ginger]

You make a fair point... I bet you are right... most naysayers won't have had PERSONAL experience with the 77tmk/.223 combo... Because it DOESN'T EXIST!!... can't buy bullets or factory ammo... so it's kind of hard to recommend a bullet/rifle combo that you can't test out or find ammo for.

It's also lost on some (unless they read this whole thread or have personal experience) that not all .223 bullets are created equal, and some of us would worry that an inexperienced hunter might learn about the .77tmk/.223 combo... think it sounds like a great idea... but then when they realize that they can't buy the 77tmk in any form, they buy the first cheap box of 55gr bullets they find on the shelf... and start flinging lead at Bambi. This might unnecessarily yield some wounded or wasted/unrecoverable animals... when that particular (less savy) hunter might have been nearly as proficient with the (still relatively mild) 6.5cm (or other light recoiling cartridge with readily available hunting ammo...) at their max 200 yard range or whatever.

If the 77tmk/223 combo works for you, and you don't plan to hunt beyond 400/450 yards, then more power to ya... but please be conscious of the reality of the premise of this thread is VERY limiting with a tiny amount of the bullet options available to .223 owners being viable for hunting big game. A hunter starting out might be wise to consider alternatives... at least until something changes to make the tmk available to all who intend to utilize the benefits proffered here-in.

Honestly your reasoning could be used with any common caliber when it comes to bad bullet selection so it's not exclusive to 223. Anyone who chooses this combo and chooses not to practice and seek out the proven bullets in this caliber are just as likely to be the same irresponsible people who would be gut shooting deer with magnums and not recovering/wounding game.

There are also several other options for bullets if one were to read this thread. Federal fusions and Hornady ELD factory loads are not difficult to find.

 

[Reburn]

It also bears pointing out that this combo (the 77grtmk/223) is yardage dependent. "Form" may have taken animals out beyond 450 yards with it, but he has noted a number of times across several different threads that he recommends the tmk/223 combo out to 450 yards.

However, he further clarifies this with his own personal minimum velocity criteria of 1800fps impact velocity

"As long as I achieve 1,800fos at the range I require, I want as short as possible. If it doesn’t hit 1,800fps at range, than I go bigger cartridge"

Which he has further clarified usually correlates to a 22 inch factory length tikka 1/8 twist barrel... using 8208xbr hand loads, getting 2840fps MV.

However, if you do the math, that MV coupled with the BC of the 77gr tmk, at 450 yards is actually 2000fps impact velocity (which implies that when Form makes his recommendations, he is adding in a 200fps minimum velocity buffer). Personally, I feel more comfortable with a 2000fps minimum velocity threshold for ANY bullet I shoot, and some I would argue would need even higher minimum velocities (like some monos, which also has been pointed out a number of times here). Perhaps the tmk CAN perform adequately down to 1800fps, or even less... but anomalies are limited with a higher self imposed minimum.

So... the point here...

If your .223 has a shorter barrel length than the standard proposed here, then velocity will be reduced, and the max reliable range is reduced.

For example, if your 22inch tikka can produce 2840fps with your handloads, then a 16 inch AR barrel might only produce 2600fps with the same load... so if the max range with the 2840fps is 450 yards, then the max range to get the same impact velocity (starting at 2600fps) would be reduced to 325 yards.

However, if you are limited to factory 77tmk ammo (as many new hunters dont reload) you might only get 2750fps with your 22inch barrel, your max range by comparison is reduced to 400 yards... and the 16 inch barrel velocity is likely reduced to around 2550fps, and your max range reduces to 300 yards.

Then consider... perhaps you are like many, and you can't find 77tmk... so you decide to shoot 73eldm hornady match factory ammo. I can personally get about 2725fps out of my 22 inch tikka... which hits my 2000fps impact velocity threshold at about 375 yards at my temp/elevation... out of a 16 inch barrel, this bullet combo drops to around 2500fps... which means a 265 yard max range with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold.

Of course... if you are comfortable imposing a lower minimum velocity threshold... say 1900 or 1800fps, then you can add yardage.

By comparison,

The readily available 147gr match hornady ammo out of a 6.5 creedmoor (with its much higher BC) will give you around 2700fps out of a factory tikka, which gets to 635 yards with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold. If your 16 inch barrel gets 2500fps MV, then it doesn't fall below 2000fps impact velocity until beyond 465 yards.

So, yes... a 77tmk could be a good option for some... within certain yardage and velocity constraints... but other light-recoiling alternatives exist that offer ballistic advantages and extended range by comparison.

Personally, I hunt in open country out west, where an experienced shooter could reasonably expect shot opportunities out to 600 yards (my own self imposed limit) and beyond... and so if I want a shorter barreled rifle to pack around... I'm going to likely reach for one that can lob bullets with a higher BC.

He says 1800 fps is the threshold for reliable upsetting.
He knows this because he has ran it down to 1600 and not got reliable upsetting.

Also he cuts his barrels down and threads for suppressors.

I think you have missed the point ot this thread by in whole. Let me summarize for you.

Given same shooters, 223 hit rates are higher then any larger calibers including 6mm due to reduced recoil
77 tmk is reliable to 1800 fps which is 400-450 yards in most combos.
bigger bullets dont kill better. Nobody shoots good enough to say the BC helps them inside 500.

 

[BBob]

Have they always been 8 twist barrels?

Not really sure but I assume so.

 

[packgoatguy]

Honestly your reasoning could be used with any common caliber when it comes to bad bullet selection so it's not exclusive to 223. Anyone who chooses this combo and chooses not to practice and seek out the proven bullets in this caliber are just as likely to be the same irresponsible people who would be gut shooting deer with magnums and not recovering/wounding game.

There are also several other options for bullets if one were to read this thread. Federal fusions and Hornady ELD factory loads are not difficult to find.

Yes... but...

According to posters here-in, the "huckleberry" is the 77tmk. Apparently, it doesn't have the same level of anecdotal failure rates that can be found represented in other bullet choices.

For example, look at post 2020 refers to the 62 gr gold dots aka federal fusion bullets:

"Shot a few where I only had a quartering towards shot and every one of them gimped off with only 3 legs working never to be seen again. The 70gr Barnes smoked right through and exited with the same shot. My best guess is they were hitting the shoulder blade and turning but I never found one to confirm. Behind the shoulder, through the chest, or neck they dropped or didn’t go far. These were central VA deer too which aren’t big animals."

Form later responds and says he got penetration under conditions... but that still doesn't resolve the fact that at least for those "few" deer, the 62gr Gold Dot did NOT work in a preferred manner.

Furthermore, with the reduced BC of the 62gr gold dot bullet, (which you aren't likely to get more than 2600fps MV out of a 16 inch barrel...) that will drop below even Form's stated minimum impact velocity threshold of 1800fps at just 335 yards. If you want to stick with a higher buffer, like 2000fps minimum velocity... that puts it at 245 yards max range for minimum terminal performance.

So... if you want to hunt with a rifle bullet combo that limits you to 245 yards... by all means, try out the 62gr fusion.

However, new hunters should NOT be encouraged to think that its a good idea to pick up a box of federal fusion off the shelf, to then go hunt an elk with their 16 inch barreled AR15 out to 450 yards.

For me, I like a bullet combo that is going to give me 2000fps minimum velocity impact at 600 yards... with a short and suppressed barrel. That means a 22creed or 22-250 with the right twist could be an option, but the 223/tmk or any other 223 combo isn't going to have the juice.

 

[fwafwow]

However, new hunters should NOT be encouraged to think that its a good idea to pick up a box of federal fusion off the shelf, to then go hunt an elk with their 16 inch barreled AR15 out to 450 yards.

Is this happening, in this thread or elsewhere?

 

[packgoatguy]

He says 1800 fps is the threshold for reliable upsetting.
He knows this because he has ran it down to 1600 and not got reliable upsetting.

Also he cuts his barrels down and threads for suppressors.

I think you have missed the point ot this thread by in whole. Let me summarize for you.

Given same shooters, 223 hit rates are higher then any larger calibers including 6mm due to reduced recoil
77 tmk is reliable to 1800 fps which is 400-450 yards in most combos.
bigger bullets dont kill better. Nobody shoots good enough to say the BC helps them inside 500.

I'm sorry YOU didn't feel that my post met YOUR criteria for being in line with the "point of this thread" (corrected for typos).

I'm not sure what part of my post exactly you felt the need to correct? Did I ever once contradict your proposed premise that "bigger bullets don't kill better"??

If you want to hunt with a rifle that limits your shots to 400, 450, or 500 yards (not sure which one you are aiming for, cause you referred to all three as plausible max yardages) more power to you. I merely pointed out that the sacred 77tmk/223 combo does not fit all parameters for success, especially if one might consider shots BEYOND 500 yards (your stated range, not mine).

Likewise, just because Form says that 1800fps is a reasonable minimum velocity threshold... does NOT mean that it is unwise for a hunter to consider a "buffer" or a higher margin of error with a few more fps tacked on top. ESPECIALLY if said hunter does NOT have access to the 77tmk and might consider hunting with other bullets that might not have the same awe inspiring terminal characteristics that the 77tmk apparently has. In which case, the maximum yardage applicable would be reduced significantly (300, 350, 400 instead of 400, 450, 500).

You give some new hunter the unqualified advice that they "can kill elk out to 450 yards with their 223rem... " and they take you literally... and whip out their 16 inch barreled AR15, put a 62gr Federal fusion in it (2600fps MV) and go start lobbing bullets??? That's not going to end well! At 450 yards, that fusion bullet is going just a bit over 1500fps!!! And has drifted nearly 14 inches in a mild 5mph breeze.

If Form has the experience necessary to make that shot, great... but there are newbe hunters looking for real information that come to threads like these, read a handful of cute one liners batted back and forth... and come away with the impression that any ole 223rem is a bona-fide 450 yard elk gun under every condition... and that's just not the case if you know how to do the math.

Whether you like it or not, the 223/tmk combo has limits to its applicability. The least of not which is the simple fact that you cannot buy it at this time... and alternatives should be considered on a case by case basis based on their particular performance window and characteristics...

 

[Grundy53]

I'm sorry YOU didn't feel that my post met YOUR criteria for being in line with the "point of this thread" (corrected for typos).

I'm not sure what part of my post exactly you felt the need to correct? Did I ever once contradict your proposed premise that "bigger bullets don't kill better"??

If you want to hunt with a rifle that limits your shots to 400, 450, or 500 yards (not sure which one you are aiming for, cause you referred to all three as plausible max yardages) more power to you. I merely pointed out that the sacred 77tmk/223 combo does not fit all parameters for success, especially if one might consider shots BEYOND 500 yards (your stated range, not mine).

Likewise, just because Form says that 1800fps is a reasonable minimum velocity threshold... does NOT mean that it is unwise for a hunter to consider a "buffer" or a higher margin of error with a few more fps tacked on top. ESPECIALLY if said hunter does NOT have access to the 77tmk and might consider hunting with other bullets that might not have the same awe inspiring terminal characteristics that the 77tmk apparently has. In which case, the maximum yardage applicable would be reduced significantly (300, 350, 400 instead of 400, 450, 500).

You give some new hunter the unqualified advice that they "can kill elk out to 450 yards with their 223rem... " and they take you literally... and whip out their 16 inch barreled AR15, put a 62gr Federal fusion in it (2600fps MV) and go start lobbing bullets??? That's not going to end well! At 450 yards, that fusion bullet is going just a bit over 1500fps!!! And has drifted nearly 14 inches in a mild 5mph breeze.

If Form has the experience necessary to make that shot, great... but there are newbe hunters looking for real information that come to threads like these, read a handful of cute one liners batted back and forth... and come away with the impression that any ole 223rem is a bona-fide 450 yard elk gun under every condition... and that's just not the case if you know how to do the math.

Whether you like it or not, the 223/tmk combo has limits to its applicability. The least of not which is the simple fact that you cannot buy it at this time... and alternatives should be considered on a case by case basis based on their particular performance window and characteristics...

That's a whole lot of strawman and what ifs.

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[Formidilosus]

Yes... but...

According to posters here-in, the "huckleberry" is the 77tmk. Apparently, it doesn't have the same level of anecdotal failure rates that can be found represented in other bullet choices.

There are quite a few bullets that are reliable killers in .224. The 77gr TMK and heavy ELD-M’s are “destructive”.

For example, look at post 2020 refers to the 62 gr gold dots aka federal fusion bullets:

"Shot a few where I only had a quartering towards shot and every one of them gimped off with only 3 legs working never to be seen again. The 70gr Barnes smoked right through and exited with the same shot. My best guess is they were hitting the shoulder blade and turning but I never found one to confirm. Behind the shoulder, through the chest, or neck they dropped or didn’t go far. These were central VA deer too which aren’t big animals."
Form later responds and says he got penetration under conditions... but that still doesn't resolve the fact that at least for those "few" deer, the 62gr Gold Dot did NOT work in a preferred manner.

Complete and udder bullshit.

Let me rephrase- is it possible that a “few” 62gr Golddots “skipped off” a piece of cardboard (“shoulder”)? Sure, everything has a probability. But that is about as likely statistically as a 30cal 180gr Accubond doing the same thing- in other words… yeah no.

Furthermore, with the reduced BC of the 62gr gold dot bullet, (which you aren't likely to get more than 2600fps MV out of a 16 inch barrel...) that will drop below even Form's stated minimum impact velocity threshold of 1800fps at just 335 yards. If you want to stick with a higher buffer, like 2000fps minimum velocity... that puts it at 245 yards max range for minimum terminal performance.

So... if you want to hunt with a rifle bullet combo that limits you to 245 yards... by all means, try out the 62gr fusion.

You are writing a lot, with no experience. Fusion/Gold Dots are as reliable in performance as any bullet made.

However, new hunters should NOT be encouraged to think that its a good idea to pick up a box of federal fusion off the shelf, to then go hunt an elk with their 16 inch barreled AR15 out to 450 yards.

I would kill every elk walking at 450 yards from a 10.5” barrel and 62gr Fusions, let alone a 16”. I’ve seem the results of hundreds of test shots, and hundreds of larger mammals killed with Gold Dots to just past 440 yards from short barrels- they kill like the plague.


The “450 yard effective range” thing has as much or more to do with the fact that very, very few people practice/train enough to have high probability of success past that 400’ish range.

For me, I like a bullet combo that is going to give me 2000fps minimum velocity impact at 600 yards... with a short and suppressed barrel. That means a 22creed or 22-250 with the right twist could be an option, but the 223/tmk or any other 223 combo isn't going to have the juice.

And if that’s your priority- sure. However, Reburn’s last post is much more inline with the gist of it all than what you are presenting.

 

[packgoatguy]

Is this happening, in this thread or elsewhere?

Read the context of the post I replied to. He SPECIFICALLY cites the 62gr fusion bullet as a reasonable alternative to the 77tmk.

Form and others have hyped the benefits of shorter barrels, as low as 10.5 inches (with the 62gr fusion in fact if I recall correctly)

I have nothing against short barrels myself, but the minimum velocity thresholds for the tmk, eld, and gold dots are not the same, nor will the same down range velocity be achieved due to different BC. If a poster claims that the 77tmk/223 is perfect out to 450 yards, that should be a qualified statement, and it would be responsible to add in the disclaimer of the minimum velocity intended, and that suitable replacements should be analyzed approximately. Perhaps the 77tmk (if you are lucky enough to find it) is a suitable 400-450 yards big game combo... with a long enough barrel and high enough elevation to get velocities to either 1800fps at impact or whatever let's you sleep at night... but by comparison, an alternative like the 62gr gold dot will need to have a shorter max range to produce similar results.

 

[BjornF16]

@packgoatguy

You were being schooled when you were typing...see post 3,132 ;-)

 

[fwafwow]

Read the context of the post I replied to. He SPECIFICALLY cites the 62gr fusion bullet as a reasonable alternative to the 77tmk.

I read all of your recent posts, and the ones to which you replied. I edited my post to make clear the part to which I was referring.

Form and others have hyped the benefits of shorter barrels, as low as 10.5 inches (with the 62gr fusion in fact if I recall correctly)

Seems strong (to quite strong)

I have nothing against short barrels myself, but the minimum velocity thresholds for the tmk, eld, and gold dots are not the same, nor will the same down range velocity be achieved due to different BC. If a poster claims that the 77tmk/223 is perfect out to 450 yards, that should be a qualified statement, and it would be responsible to add in the disclaimer of the minimum velocity intended, and that suitable replacements should be analyzed approximately.

I don't remember anyone saying anything is perfect, or even close to that, and there are boat loads of qualifications and caveats, most of which were posted rather succinctly.

Perhaps the 77tmk (if you are lucky enough to find it)

As you know some was available Friday.

 

[Pharmseller]

Cholera kills faster than the plague, on average.

I looked it up.

 

[Reburn]

I'm sorry YOU didn't feel that my post met YOUR criteria for being in line with the "point of this thread" (corrected for typos).

I'm not sure what part of my post exactly you felt the need to correct? Did I ever once contradict your proposed premise that "bigger bullets don't kill better"??

If you want to hunt with a rifle that limits your shots to 400, 450, or 500 yards (not sure which one you are aiming for, cause you referred to all three as plausible max yardages) more power to you. I merely pointed out that the sacred 77tmk/223 combo does not fit all parameters for success, especially if one might consider shots BEYOND 500 yards (your stated range, not mine).

Likewise, just because Form says that 1800fps is a reasonable minimum velocity threshold... does NOT mean that it is unwise for a hunter to consider a "buffer" or a higher margin of error with a few more fps tacked on top. ESPECIALLY if said hunter does NOT have access to the 77tmk and might consider hunting with other bullets that might not have the same awe inspiring terminal characteristics that the 77tmk apparently has. In which case, the maximum yardage applicable would be reduced significantly (300, 350, 400 instead of 400, 450, 500).

You give some new hunter the unqualified advice that they "can kill elk out to 450 yards with their 223rem... " and they take you literally... and whip out their 16 inch barreled AR15, put a 62gr Federal fusion in it (2600fps MV) and go start lobbing bullets??? That's not going to end well! At 450 yards, that fusion bullet is going just a bit over 1500fps!!! And has drifted nearly 14 inches in a mild 5mph breeze.

If Form has the experience necessary to make that shot, great... but there are newbe hunters looking for real information that come to threads like these, read a handful of cute one liners batted back and forth... and come away with the impression that any ole 223rem is a bona-fide 450 yard elk gun under every condition... and that's just not the case if you know how to do the math.

Whether you like it or not, the 223/tmk combo has limits to its applicability. The least of not which is the simple fact that you cannot buy it at this time... and alternatives should be considered on a case by case basis based on their particular performance window and characteristics...

Man you use a lot of words to not say much.

I dont have feelings in this like you.

There are lots of things indicating you don't fully grasp this thread. You were not even able to read my whole post and be able to quote back to me what I said. I dont think you have grasped what I said either.

Yes the 223/77 tmk does have limitations. 450 yards or 1800 fps impact. Which ever comes first.

 

[BjornF16]

Yes the 223/77 tmk does have limitations. 450 yards or 1800 fps impact. Which ever comes first.

The 450 yards that Form talks about has more to do with shooting ability than bullet performance.

Somewhere back a month or two (and maybe 12 pages), Form killed an elk with 77 TMK impact velocity of 1440 fps (iirc). That would be in excess of 800 yards. I also believe Form stated the bullet still exhibited good upset.