.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[PNWGATOR]

Not exactly sure, I’ve shot a bunch of deer on nuisance permits with a lot of different rifles. Guesstimate is 15-20 with the SMKs. They either expand violently or pencil thru. Most worked fine and the deer piled up quickly. The ones that didn’t, the deer went a ways even after being hit in the vitals. I’ve shot 10 times that with 64 grain power points. They worked great. None ever went more than a few yards. Shot a few with 75 ELDMs and they work really well. Lots of damage and deer piled up quick. I shot a coyote with my 16” AR and a 77 smk last week at about 100 yds in the field beside my house. Shot was quartering to and he went down in a heap.

Totally understand the frustration with inconsistent wound channels!

I thought the 153 Atip was THE answer out of a 6.5. Not so much. Inconsistent just as you describe.

Bullets matter.

 

[packgoatguy]

IMO, worrying about meat loss is like worry about scoring a touchdown before you even catch the ball. When I shoot at an animal, I want it dead as quickly as possible, whether I'm trying to fill the freezer or kill a trophy. If that means using a bullet that creates larger wound channels at the expense of meat loss, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

I shot the bull in my profile at 80 yards with a 175 grain Federal TA in .308. The shot was broadside at steep down angle, penetrating high side of near lung down through the full height of the far lung. He dropped to his front knees, stood back up, turned around, and walked about 50 yards before falling for good. I shot a second time just before he dropped, but we didn't find any more holes in him.

The impact velocity was roughly 2500FPS, and the controlled expansion bonded bullet exited and wasn't recovered. Obviously it did the job, but if a 168 grain TMK dropped him dead in his tracks, that would've been my preference. If I knew then what I know now...

I wouldn't over-think it too much, the Terminal Ascent bullet that you killed your bull with has been a good performer for us this past season... 6 youth hunters (ages 10-16) took 3 deer and 4 elk with the 200gr TA out of my suppressed havak element 300wm. All were one shot drops, 35 yards, 95 yards, 155 yards, 230 yards, 270 yards, 350 yards, 509 yards. (Total of 9 newbie hunters got their deer, but with my other rifles, 7mm-08 and 308win using hornady precision hunter eldx ammo). My elderly mother also took her elk at 430 yards with the same 200gr TA 300win rifle (also one shot, but the elk did go 25 yards before dropping). Most of the shots were either through both front shoulders or broadside double lungs.

I would not say that the 300wm pushing a 200gr bullet at 2850fps MV is absolutely necessary, as my kids and the other youth I have taken out over the years have successfully made one shot kills on deer with 243win, 6.5cm, 308win, and 7mm-08 rifles... However, this particular rifle is my favorite, as it is just fits me so well and is just darn accurate... so it wears my only suppressor... and inevitably all the kids wanted to shoot the rifle that had the suppressor on it. Honestly, the suppressor probably made as much of a difference as anything... because it allowed me and the shooter to focus more on the shot than fiddling with ear-pro.

I will add that I do not disagree with the premise that shooting light recoiling cartridges like the 223. 243, or 6.5 will inherently be easier to put more rounds on target than a heavier recoiling rifle... however, there are other factors as stake as well. For example, my young shooters shoot my seekins havak element style stock with a 300wm as well or better than my lighter recoiling rifles wearing traditional shorter style stocks. My 14 and 16 year old boys can easily make 1st round hits with that rifle out to 620 yards, but struggle with my less accurate 7mm-08. (But do as well or better with my tikka 6.5cm in an mdt chassis). It also makes a difference that I insist that my young hunters take fully supported shots every time, no running shots, and the shot profile has to be as ideal as possible. This means that inevitably every one of my hunters has had to pass on shots that many could likely make in their sleep... but it also means that we have an extremely high 1 shot kill rate, and almost never lose a wounded animal... regardless of bullet size, caliber, recoil, or even experience.

Anyway, I apologize for the ramble. Ive taken 3 deer with the "lowly" 223rem, out to 400 yards, earlier in my hunting career. Two were good shot placement and died quickly, one wasn't a great shot on my part, and took some tracking. And that was back when all I had to work with was 55gr soft points. I know my trusty tikka t3 1/8 twist 223rem (which I've had since before rokslide made them cool) loves the 73eldm... and my boys like taking headshots on jackrabbits out to 200 yards with it... haven't tried it on deer yet, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being a capable cartridge for big game with the right bullet.

 

[packgoatguy]

77 TMK ammo back in stock.

Stand 1 Armory RCP 223 77gr Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) - Stand 1 Armory

Stand 1 Armory 223 77gr Sierra TMK 77g Sierra Tipped Match King (long-range precision): These polymer tipped 77g Sierra TMK bullets buck the wind very well and produce extremely consistent results at distances out to one mile. These are the best long-range 223 bullets on the market, and are...

u16982964.ct.sendgrid.net

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Yeah, I clicked on this... said it was in stock, added three boxes (max allowed??) to my cart... told me it would be $15 shipping... then applied the 5% off coupon code, add my CC info, then it told me my shipping was actually $19... but I proceeded anyway... hit submit... and it told me it was no longer in stock. How am I so unlucky that they happen to run out during the very 60 seconds I'm submitting my order??

So...this whole thread is purely academic for some of us... I'd love a chance to give the 77gr TMK a shot... but I'm just too unlucky to score bullets or loaded ammo.
I'm sure this thread has done wonders for sierra's bottom line.

Side note, has anyone else noticed that in the description of the 77gr tmk on sierrabullets.com, they recently highlighted the part about the bullets NOT being recommended for hunting applications... when I last looked at their site, probably only a few weeks ago, it was not highlighted then if i recall correctly... I wonder if this thread has something to do with that?

 

[cod0396]

The 62 grain fusion is, though I can't imagine there being much felt recoil difference between the lower grain options and 77gr tmk. I can't tell any difference anyways

Depends on the loading. Non MSR fusion is a light .223 load, so it has basically zero recoil. Factory 5.56 77gr TMK is noticeably harder kicking, in my experience. 5.56 77gr TMK loads will push the 77gr bullet to essentially identical velocities as the 62gr bullet in the .223 fusion load.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Not exactly sure, I’ve shot a bunch of deer on nuisance permits with a lot of different rifles. Guesstimate is 15-20 with the SMKs. They either expand violently or pencil thru. Most worked fine and the deer piled up quickly. The ones that didn’t, the deer went a ways even after being hit in the vitals. I’ve shot 10 times that with 64 grain power points. They worked great. None ever went more than a few yards. Shot a few with 75 ELDMs and they work really well. Lots of damage and deer piled up quick. I shot a coyote with my 16” AR and a 77 smk last week at about 100 yds in the field beside my house. Shot was quartering to and he went down in a heap.

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

 

[beerbucksducks]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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[Fartrell Cluggins]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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You kinda answered your own question. You did some testing. You did so on an animal that would quickly die, even if the bullet did not perform the way you wanted it to. Based on a good bit of reading, much of it of Form's writing, there are non-animal mediums into which bullets can be fired to get a VERY reliable indication of their on-game performance.

 

[35WhelenAI]

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

I'd like to understand that as well.

 

[BBob]

Does anyone know if setting up the Howa mini with the Oregunsmithing bottom metal, allows greater O.A.L.
And thus heavier heavies… Suppose I could call them….

As stated by others they will allow for longer OAL but you can’t get the bottom metal right now. They’ve been waiting on the mag springs and have no idea when they might get them.

 

[11Justin22]

Depends on the loading. Non MSR fusion is a light .223 load, so it has basically zero recoil. Factory 5.56 77gr TMK is noticeably harder kicking, in my experience. 5.56 77gr TMK loads will push the 77gr bullet to essentially identical velocities as the 62gr bullet in the .223 fusion load.

Interesting, my experience is with an AR with many different loads and I can't tell much of a difference at all. Maybe the platform has someone do do with that. Only bolt .223 I have is not twisted fast enough for the tmk so I have never tried it in that.

 

[FLS]

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

I knew it would kill them, deer arent hard to kill. My curiosity was did more "proven" bullets and caliber work better. Was what i had read and heard most of my life true?
Its not, with similar placement a 300 WSM with a 150 grain ballistic tip didnt kill a whitetail any deader than a 223 with a 64 grain power point. It made a bigger hole, but the deer werent any deader. What really surbrised me were how far deer went after being shot with a 45/70. I figure that buffalo gun would knock one flat. It didnt. It killed them very un spectacularly.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Seems a correlation between spectacular internal destruction, and incapacitating the central nervous system, while the brain dies from lack of oxygen.

 

[taba]

A single [.223] round is capable of severing the upper body from the lower body, or decapitation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624470286598012928

 

[Slsnpsy]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

 

[MidGAHunter]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

 

[cmahoney]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

Thanks for the insight, I was really confused until you made this post and cleared everything up for me!


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[Reburn]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

Yea bro he aint responding back. He got his 10 posts and now is on his way to the classifieds. This thread is still the best fudd trap ever.

 

[BradArnett]

Awesome thread, finally made it through this after a month of reading

While I haven't used the 77tmk I have killed a truckload of deer from 20-480yds with the 223/223ai and 22-250/22-250ai using 50vmax, 53tsx, 60vmax, 60partitions, 64pp, 75scirocco, 75amax. I have the most kills with the 62tsx and the 75amaxs. From what I seen over the years the 75amax put deer down quicker than than the tsx ever did for me.

It sure looks like the 77tmk is just more of a good thing.

 

[packgoatguy]

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

You make a fair point... I bet you are right... most naysayers won't have had PERSONAL experience with the 77tmk/.223 combo... Because it DOESN'T EXIST!!... can't buy bullets or factory ammo... so it's kind of hard to recommend a bullet/rifle combo that you can't test out or find ammo for.

It's also lost on some (unless they read this whole thread or have personal experience) that not all .223 bullets are created equal, and some of us would worry that an inexperienced hunter might learn about the .77tmk/.223 combo... think it sounds like a great idea... but then when they realize that they can't buy the 77tmk in any form, they buy the first cheap box of 55gr bullets they find on the shelf... and start flinging lead at Bambi. This might unnecessarily yield some wounded or wasted/unrecoverable animals... when that particular (less savy) hunter might have been nearly as proficient with the (still relatively mild) 6.5cm (or other light recoiling cartridge with readily available hunting ammo...) at their max 200 yard range or whatever.

If the 77tmk/223 combo works for you, and you don't plan to hunt beyond 400/450 yards, then more power to ya... but please be conscious of the reality of the premise of this thread is VERY limiting with a tiny amount of the bullet options available to .223 owners being viable for hunting big game. A hunter starting out might be wise to consider alternatives... at least until something changes to make the tmk available to all who intend to utilize the benefits proffered here-in.