.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

[Formidilosus]

What is it about the Grendel that makes it a lesser option? Recoil, price of ammo, availability?
If a person were to use TMK/ELDM and stay above 1800, what makes the 223 superior in your opinion? Just curious. Thanks.

The Grendel has more recoil, expense, and drop more; with less ammo for practice, and comprised rifles choices.


6.5G with 123gr ELD-M at 2,500fps MV, 5k DA is a 5 mph wind bracket and hits 1,800fps at 510 yards.

223 with 77gr TMK at 2,840fps MV, and at 5k DA, is also a 5 mph wind bracket and hits 1,800fps at 595 yards.

Having seen both used extensively, I will take the lower recoul, expense, better rifles available, and the wound channel of the 77gr TMK over the 6.5G and 123gr ELD-M every time. I have seen no one that has shot and killed game animals extensively with both optimum 223’s and optimum 6.5 Grendel setup that’s would pick a Grendel over a 223 of same. The Grendel works fine and was an excellent option for elk in Colorado for instance, however the 6 ARC is better still and more available with less recoil, less wind drift, better terminal effects, and longer terminal range.

 

[Antares]

73gr ELDM
320 yards; 35 degrees downhill
Impact velocity approx 1915 fps
3 1/2 yo nanny. Broke a rib on the way in, tore up the lungs, no exit. Off her feet and rolling in 3-5 seconds. No drama.

 

[Brontosaurus]

73gr ELDM
320 yards; 35 degrees downhill
Impact velocity approx 1915 fps
3 1/2 yo nanny. Broke a rib on the way in, tore up the lungs, no exit. Off her feet and rolling in 3-5 seconds. No drama.

View attachment 620539

I thought Goats were armor plated and thicker than a greek god's thigh

 

[BigThig09]

My first victim fell this evening to the Green Goblins…

Nice Georgia 10 pointer at 74 yards. 30 yard death run on 3 legs and he was done. Not much of a “test” for these bullets, but I couldn’t be happier!

Entrance in right shoulder


What was left of the bullet was found under the offside hide…


The carnage between…



A beautiful Georgia buck! Although there was zero blood trail, the deer didn’t make it out of sight. I’m actually surprised he went as far as he did. Sorry for the amateurish autopsy photos, it was my first time lol. I seriously feel like I may have found my perfect deer rifle.

 

[Big_wals]

73gr ELDM
320 yards; 35 degrees downhill
Impact velocity approx 1915 fps
3 1/2 yo nanny. Broke a rib on the way in, tore up the lungs, no exit. Off her feet and rolling in 3-5 seconds. No drama.

View attachment 620539

Nice job man!

I thought Goats were armor plated and thicker than a greek god's thigh

Youre thinking of the 12 7/8 year old billies....... this was a nanny. They're built completely different.

 

[pbroski]

Guess I can add another data point for the 88 ELDm and 223AI. If there are typos, my bad. It’s 2 am and I am having a gin before a shower after just walking in the house from a successful moose hunt.

Here in North East BC we have a pair of 2 day moose seasons - Oct 25/26 and Nov 10/11. Only open for spike/fork, tripalm, or ten points.
Had a pretty good idea of where I wanted to go for the day, same place as last year where myself and my hunting partner shot a pair of 2 points about 30 seconds apart. I poked an 88 ELDm through the shoulders of mine and he was down at the shot.

This year I had to cut a trail around a bunch of blowdown from forest fires this summer (well, actually they are still burning here where I was) so I didn’t get into the cutblock until 3:30pm.
4pm found a pretty reasonable bull about 600 yards out, but there was a lot of willow and alder between us so I cut some distance.
Tripalm 10 point walked into a small opening at 166 yards quartering to me so I put an 88 into the point of his shoulder. He three legged hopped about 10 yards, and was broadside so I gave him a second one through the lungs because I think that the shooting is the fun part.
Two or three wobbly steps and he went down.
1st one absolutely smashed the front knuckle to bits (that quarter folds in the middle when trying to move it around) and turned the onside lung to jelly. Second poke broke ribs on the entrance, both lungs gooey, and found part of the bullet in the muscle at the back of the offside shoulder. Some lead shrapnel was embedded in the ribs inside the cavity, but that could have been either shot.

Congratulations on a fine bull!

Can you give more info on the rifle, and load? I have a Kimber Adirondak in .300 Blackout that I'm having rebarrelled to .223 AI for an ultralight setup. I'll be using a modified magazine box and ejector to load to 2.40" OAL. I'm looking for more info. Which barrel are you using? What level of precision are you getting? What powder are you using, and what's the velocity, etc.?

Thanks.

 

[letrbuck]

The Grendel works fine and was an excellent option for elk in Colorado for instance, however the 6 ARC is better still and more available with less recoil, less wind drift, better terminal effects, and longer terminal range.

Form, you've got me curious on the 6 ARC over some other 6mm options, and 108 eldm loads can be had pretty dang cheap currently. What are your thoughts on one in an AR platform over a bolt gun when shooting factory fodder? Not too interested in a full custom, so would be limited to Howa mini or grab an AR barrel and bcg...

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, you've got me curious on the 6 ARC over some other 6mm options, and 108 eldm loads can be had pretty dang cheap currently. What are your thoughts on one in an AR platform over a bolt gun when shooting factory fodder? Not too interested in a full custom, so would be limited to Howa mini or grab an AR barrel and bcg...

The 6 ARC is great whether bolt or gas gun. As a general hunting rifle I prefer bolt guns. AR’s that are as precise and consistent will be quite a bit heavier than bolt guns of the same, and gas guns have a longer lock time no matter what. If semi auto isn’t required- bolt all the way.

The Howa Mini isn’t the best setup due the magazine issue, though is fine overall. With a floorolate added it’s fine, though I have no interest that way. The CZ mag conversion is viable and is where I would go with current options.

A Mini with a proper detachable mag and good stock in 22 or 6 ARC would be a contender for sheep rifle of the year.

 

[ThatDUDE]

Form, you've got me curious on the 6 ARC over some other 6mm options, and 108 eldm loads can be had pretty dang cheap currently. What are your thoughts on one in an AR platform over a bolt gun when shooting factory fodder? Not too interested in a full custom, so would be limited to Howa mini or grab an AR barrel and bcg...

There are also some guys who have been having their Tikka .223 bolts opened up so they can run the 6mm ARC.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/tikka-6mm-arc-6-5-grendel.308203/

 

[ThatDUDE]

The 6 ARC is great whether bolt or gas gun. As a general hunting rifle I prefer bolt guns. AR’s that are as precise and consistent will be quite a bit heavier than bolt guns of the same, and gas guns have a longer lock time no matter what. If semi auto isn’t required- bolt all the way.

The Howa Mini isn’t the best setup due the magazine issue, though is fine overall. With a floorolate added it’s fine, though I have no interest that way. The CZ mag conversion is viable and is where I would go with current options.

A Mini with a proper detachable mag and good stock in 22 or 6 ARC would be a contender for sheep rifle of the year.

@Formidilosus if someone were to go the Tikka Route and wanted to maximize their effective range, what would be your choice between the .223/77TMK, 6ARC/108 or 103, or the new 22 ARC/88 ELDM? I have a Tikka .223 bolt on the way and I have really been debating about having it sent off and opened up to run one of the ARC's.

 

[Tango_41]

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.

---

“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223 is where I ended up after many discussions and objective data regarding bullet performance and numerous pics of field results.

Now for the delivery system. Accurate. Repeatable. Reliable. Reasonable weight to afford steady shot placement and the ability to spot my own impacts yet packable. Tikka T3x, vertical grip, Sportsmatch rings, SWFA 6x MQ in mills. Replaced the trigger spring with a yo Dave, adjusted to my liking, then degreased everything and locked all of the screws down with loctite and got started.

The package checks all of the boxes. Plus, it’s FUN! Time at the range is spent learning to call wind, trigger control, spotting your own impacts and figuring out why a shot did or did not end up where you wanted it. No brake. No flinch. Inexpensive to shoot. The fun factor plus the ability to be able to afford to shoot a lot goes a long way to learning and understanding shooting, accuracy and precision.

With all of that said, I’ve decided to use 77 TMK out of a .223 from this delivery system for bear, deer and elk this season.

Opportunity presented itself a couple of days ago. I killed a mature, dry sow with the 77 TMK. Bullet performance exceeded all expectations! The terminal performance is on par with anything I’ve seen in a .284 or .30. Unreal performance. The bullet is a BEAST!

Practice will continue throughout the summer in preparation for the upcoming deer and elk seasons.

Based on my sample of one, the 77 TMK out of a .223 is truly a lethal combination well suited to a dedicated lower 48 big game rifle.

Would love to hear about others experiences with this bullet or similar bulletts!

I stick with my 30-06, but I only take moose and elk primarily.

 

[Castle Rock]

And...

 

[shwacker]

I'm working on saving up for a .223 to be able to practice more. Until then, I'm shooting a .270. Any bullet recommendations from this crowd for western game - elk, deer, antelope? TMK and ELDM aren't made in this caliber.

I like that monos don't ruin as much meat, which I understand is directly correlated to less instant death on the animal I'm shooting. I also don't have to think about lead in the kids' food and am not poisoning whatever eats the carcass. I am not a great shooter and am able to limit myself to shots to within 300 or so yards and still be successful, though I'd like to get better.

I don't hunt a ton of animals, just to fill the freezer, maybe a bear and elk or deer most years. I would like to start killing coyotes for pelts as well - does a smaller bullet make sense for yotes?

 

[SouthPaw]

I'm working on saving up for a .223 to be able to practice more. Until then, I'm shooting a .270. Any bullet recommendations from this crowd for western game - elk, deer, antelope? TMK and ELDM aren't made in this caliber.

I like that monos don't ruin as much meat, which I understand is directly correlated to less instant death on the animal I'm shooting. I also don't have to think about lead in the kids' food and am not poisoning whatever eats the carcass. I am not a great shooter and am able to limit myself to shots to within 300 or so yards and still be successful, though I'd like to get better.

I don't hunt a ton of animals, just to fill the freezer, maybe a bear and elk or deer most years. I would like to start killing coyotes for pelts as well - does a smaller bullet make sense for yotes?

145 eldx, 140 Berger classic if you want to maximize tissue damage.

 

[nobody]

I'm working on saving up for a .223 to be able to practice more. Until then, I'm shooting a .270. Any bullet recommendations from this crowd for western game - elk, deer, antelope? TMK and ELDM aren't made in this caliber.

I like that monos don't ruin as much meat, which I understand is directly correlated to less instant death on the animal I'm shooting. I also don't have to think about lead in the kids' food and am not poisoning whatever eats the carcass. I am not a great shooter and am able to limit myself to shots to within 300 or so yards and still be successful, though I'd like to get better.

I don't hunt a ton of animals, just to fill the freezer, maybe a bear and elk or deer most years. I would like to start killing coyotes for pelts as well - does a smaller bullet make sense for yotes?

If I had a 270, I would entertain the 145 ELDX, 140 SST, 130 SST, or a Berger 140 HVLD. I'm particularly intrigued by the 140 Berger after watching my brother kill a bull at 450 earlier this month with his 270. Quartering away, shooting downhill, entered high in the back 1/3 of the chest cavity and exited right in front of the left shoulder. The bull took the hit, stood there for about 8 seconds all wide-legged and wobbly, and then tipped over. When we got to the bull and started to cape him off, his insides were all "sloshy" and soupy. It's only a sample of one, but I was impressed, and I've not ever even remotely been tempted to try bergers until then.

As far as a "smaller" bullet for coyotes, drop down in caliber and not bullet weight. So many people get hung up on "well you need 130 for deer but 150 grain for elk." BS. When you find a load/bullet combo your gun likes, stick with it and quit screwing around. If you find the 130 grain SST shoots best in your rifle, then shoot the 130's for everything from coyotes to moose and never think twice. If you want something "smaller" for coyotes, buy a 223 or 22-250 or something of that nature.

But then again, you're planning on doing that eventually anyway in a 223 Tikka. So until then, just shoot the same projectile for everything through that 270 and live happy.

And if you absolutely HAVE to use monos for some reason, go with the lightest weight, softest mono you can find (such as a 129 gr. Barnes LRX), and push it as HARD and as FAST as is humanly possible. And then just know you'll probably have to put an extra round into them or potentially track them for further/longer than a similar shot placement with an ELDX/SST/VLD would need. Then just cap your max distance wherever you hit about 2k-2200 FPS (about 450, MAYBE 500 yards). It can be done, it's just not what's preferred for many of us here on the 'slide.

 

[BAC]

I'm working on saving up for a .223 to be able to practice more. Until then, I'm shooting a .270. Any bullet recommendations from this crowd for western game - elk, deer, antelope? TMK and ELDM aren't made in this caliber.

I like that monos don't ruin as much meat, which I understand is directly correlated to less instant death on the animal I'm shooting. I also don't have to think about lead in the kids' food and am not poisoning whatever eats the carcass. I am not a great shooter and am able to limit myself to shots to within 300 or so yards and still be successful, though I'd like to get better.

I don't hunt a ton of animals, just to fill the freezer, maybe a bear and elk or deer most years. I would like to start killing coyotes for pelts as well - does a smaller bullet make sense for yotes?

Related to this point, for folks using the TMK and ELDM bullets in .223, how much has fragmentation and lead spoiling been a concern? It's hard to tell from just the pictures how much these bullets are retaining their mass. Some of it is clearly being lost but it looks like a fairly large amount is staying together. One of the goals of my learning to hunt is to fill the freezer, but looking at the good places to shoot vs the largest quantities of meat, I think I should still get 90+% of what I'd ordinarily harvest even with a really big fragmentation path?

 

[dreamingWest]

Goodness, someone update the thread title to include ", and mountain goats."

 

[Dioni A]

@Formidilosus if someone were to go the Tikka Route and wanted to maximize their effective range, what would be your choice between the .223/77TMK, 6ARC/108 or 103, or the new 22 ARC/88 ELDM? I have a Tikka .223 bolt on the way and I have really been debating about having it sent off and opened up to run one of the ARC's.

You could also go with a 22-250 1/8 twist and either run it how it is or have it opened up to a 22 creedmoor. Incredibly shootable and delivers an 88 ELDM fast enough to do damage a long ways out. Buys you a lot more in the wind department too.

 

[BAC]

Those of y'all using the 77gr TMK bullets, in factory or hand loadings, what is the measured COAL? I'm trying to see if this might be usable in my ARs as well.

 

[The Guide]

Those of y'all using the 77gr TMK bullets, in factory or hand loadings, what is the measured COAL? I'm trying to see if this might be usable in my ARs as well.

The factory ammo is magazine length. I have not used handloads yet, only the Black Hills 5.56 TMK loads.

Jay