.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[PNWGATOR]

Just to clarify...
Plenty of examples exist of bears shot with tiny rifles. But often they are brain shots. What is interesting about this thread is the evidence 223 with the right bullet can do well on body shots. A lot of bigger guns are probably wasting energy because they blast through with a to tough bullet. To give an example, my 375 makes a half inch entrance wound and a 2 inch exit on smaller animals. My 308 does basically the same. The difference seems to be the 308 probably has less energy left as it exits but so what? The animals die about the same. Now a softcTMK out of my 375 might do more damage as in, to much. But that extra energy is nice on a bear because I might need to shoot through the skull or take a Texas heart shot up the stern of a wounded bear headed into the brush. Despite all the pictures I don't the a 223 would do well there. But if a 223 can handle a moose my 308 could certainly kill a grizzly. I'm just a bit hesitant about going that light. Grizzlies are the only animal that stops my 375 broadside.

Energy is a meaningless metric when it comes to terminal performance.

Bullets matter.

 

[Marbles]

Just to clarify...
Plenty of examples exist of bears shot with tiny rifles. But often they are brain shots. What is interesting about this thread is the evidence 223 with the right bullet can do well on body shots. A lot of bigger guns are probably wasting energy because they blast through with a to tough bullet. To give an example, my 375 makes a half inch entrance wound and a 2 inch exit on smaller animals. My 308 does basically the same. The difference seems to be the 308 probably has less energy left as it exits but so what? The animals die about the same. Now a softcTMK out of my 375 might do more damage as in, to much. But that extra energy is nice on a bear because I might need to shoot through the skull or take a Texas heart shot up the stern of a wounded bear headed into the brush. Despite all the pictures I don't the a 223 would do well there. But if a 223 can handle a moose my 308 could certainly kill a grizzly. I'm just a bit hesitant about going that light. Grizzlies are the only animal that stops my 375 broadside.

I think you over estimate the 375. A former coworker, using a 375 Ruger, shot a brown quartering away and when he finally tracked it down and killed it 3 days later, his bullet had broken the rear femur and stopped before reaching the diaphragm. I forget the bullet he was using, but a high spine shot would have worked better than trying to get into the boiler room.

 

[Luke S]

PNWGATOR I am referring to the size of the wound cavity. A 375 with tough bullets is inefficient on a black bear because a 308 with softer bullets makes a similar wound cavity.

 

[Luke S]

I think you over estimate the 375. A former coworker, using a 375 Ruger, shot a brown quartering away and when he finally tracked it down and killed it 3 days later, his bullet had broken the rear femur and stopped before reaching the diaphragm. I forget the bullet he was using, but a high spine shot would have worked better than trying to get into the boiler room.

I did a high spine shot on a black bear someone else wounded. It dropped the bear. I found the bullet lodged in the spine. So yes a 375 won't go through a bear at any angle. Your friends experience brings up another point. Breaking a bears shoulder is pointless if you don't also hit something vital. Bears travel fast on 3 legs.

 

[Lawnboi]

Hornady .224 Diameter 80 Grain Polymer Tip ELD-X 100 Count Bullets

The ELD-X® (Extremely Low Drag – eXpanding) bullet is a technologically advanced, match accurate, ALL-RANGE hunting bullet featuring highest-in-class ballistic coefficients and consistent, controlled expansion at ALL practical hunting distances.

www.powdervalley.com

Someone buy some and compare the terminal performance to the tmk.

 

[Pharmseller]

Hornady .224 Diameter 80 Grain Polymer Tip ELD-X 100 Count Bullets

The ELD-X® (Extremely Low Drag – eXpanding) bullet is a technologically advanced, match accurate, ALL-RANGE hunting bullet featuring highest-in-class ballistic coefficients and consistent, controlled expansion at ALL practical hunting distances.

www.powdervalley.com

Someone buy some and compare the terminal performance to the tmk.

See my post regarding 75 ELDM




P

 

[Pharmseller]

Energy is a meaningless metric when it comes to terminal performance.

Bullets matter.

I quit paying attention to energy a long time ago.

Velocity at distance and bullet construction.




P

 

[Dust Rider]

10.29.23 More data: 14 year old daughter got a WT doe with the Black Hills 77gr TMK and Tikka .223. Shot off tripod in ag field @ 285 yards. Complete pass thru front leg, heart, out other side. Doe ran about twenty yards and did a death flip. I asked her what rifle she wanted to use, answer was the Tikka with supressor. So much fun using the Tikka .223 with TMK. The kids love it and will be buying another.

 

[Lawnboi]

See my post regarding 75 ELDM




P

Which one? Iv seen what some of the eldm do, and while I havnt been disappointed, I still think the tmk makes the ideal wound channel. Particularly like how fast they seem to upset. They seem to have no neck length where the eldm seem to have atleast some.

Just curious if the 80eldx behaves more like the tmk or if it’s just another eldm(which is likely correct).

Either way nice seeing more killing bullets in 22 cal.

 

[The Guide]

Which one? Iv seen what some of the eldm do, and while I havnt been disappointed, I still think the tmk makes the ideal wound channel. Particularly like how fast they seem to expand.

Just curious if the 80eldx behaves more like the tmk or if it’s just another eldm(which is likely correct).

Either way nice seeing more killing bullets in 22 cal.

I'm excited to see what the 22 ARC will do with the 77tmk, the 80 ELDX, and the 88 ELDM on game. I can give my 223's to my wife and kids and shoot the 'big gun' myself...

Jay

 

[Lawnboi]

I'm excited to see what the 22 ARC will do with the 77tmk, the 80 ELDX, and the 88 ELDM on game. I can give my 223's to my wife and kids and shoot the 'big gun' myself...

Jay

Skip the bolt face changes and mag hassle and grab a 22 cm. Iv scratched that itch and ballistically you can’t really argue with that 88. Was a 7mph gun for me this past week.

The 22 arc has some promise if bolt action makers decide to make a scaled down action. Maybe bat machine and UM will make us a mini action, with a tikka trigger, and a flush mag system….. a guy can dream.

 

[PantherCity]

A Mini with a proper detachable mag and good stock in 22 or 6 ARC would be a contender for sheep rifle of the year.

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention] I know you have a strong preference for detachable mags, can you expand on this? I have a suppressed 16” 223 howa mini in a stockys VG and I love it outside of the magazine, and I was about to buy an aftermarket hinged floorplate bottom metal.


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[The Guide]

Skip the bolt face changes and mag hassle and grab a 22 cm. Iv scratched that itch and ballistically you can’t really argue with that 88. Was a 7mph gun for me this past week.

The 22 arc has some promise if bolt action makers decide to make a scaled down action. Maybe bat machine and UM will make us a mini action, with a tikka trigger, and a flush mag system….. a guy can dream.

I know I'm an "outlier" but I like the Howa Mini Action. I have 2 Grendel rifles and a 223 along with just ordering a 6 ARC to make an ultralight 22 ARC/6 ARC switch barrel system. I'm really enjoying carrying my 223 Howa with the 77tmk season. Short, light, and effective. If the 6 ARC shoots really good, I might just leave it alone and use my CZ527 Grendel and make it my 22 ARC. Or I could use my Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 and make it a 22 ARC. I have lots of bolt guns with the right bolt face to work with.

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention] I know you have a strong preference for detachable mags, can you expand on this? I have a suppressed 16” 223 howa mini in a stockys VG and I love it outside of the magazine, and I was about to buy an aftermarket hinged floorplate bottom metal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BDL setups are more finicky, less reliable, slower to reload, and offer less capacity generally.

Proper detachable mags are way less finicky, more reliable, much faster to reload, and offers variable and larger capacity.

 

[jadkins223]

Fresh batch of 73 ELDMs for deer season!


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[Hoosker Doo]

Rifle seasons coming!

Prepping cases tonight. 69 gr TMK and CFE223 are this years winners, since I'm hindered by a 1-9 twist.....

Any luck taking any animals with the 69 TMK? I'm considering hunting with a rifle that also has the 1-9 twist, and would like to know if performance is comparable.

 

[william schmaltz]

Just to clarify...
Plenty of examples exist of bears shot with tiny rifles. But often they are brain shots. What is interesting about this thread is the evidence 223 with the right bullet can do well on body shots. A lot of bigger guns are probably wasting energy because they blast through with a to tough bullet. To give an example, my 375 makes a half inch entrance wound and a 2 inch exit on smaller animals. My 308 does basically the same. The difference seems to be the 308 probably has less energy left as it exits but so what? The animals die about the same. Now a softcTMK out of my 375 might do more damage as in, to much. But that extra energy is nice on a bear because I might need to shoot through the skull or take a Texas heart shot up the stern of a wounded bear headed into the brush. Despite all the pictures I don't the a 223 would do well there. But if a 223 can handle a moose my 308 could certainly kill a grizzly. I'm just a bit hesitant about going that light. Grizzlies are the only animal that stops my 375 broadside. So the extra energy and frontal area may not be wasted. If I recall the would was wider and the bloodshot area was huge.

I admit I don’t play the bullet ABCs and I’m truly here to learn. I’ve seen a dozen Canadian moose shot (performed necropsies on probably over 50) and now double digit AK/Yukon moose. A 60 inch AK bull is double the size of a great bull that has been shared in this thread. There is no doubt in my mind or no one here that a well placed 77 TMK would make fairly quick work of an AK bull or griz. What plays on my mind is what happens with a not so great shot in a situation where an animal such as grizz potentially runs off at full speed or a moose that then can jump in the swamp. And that’s why I keep returning to threads like this with an open mind to try and gauge as I’m trying to convince myself on this round for my oldest (5yo) to take his first moose and eventually black/brown bears from the stand in a couple years, but I’m not there yet. So I appreciate everyone’s input.

For reference on toughness, first pic below is a moose my brother shot this year with 375 Ruger. Jello lungs from 250 in near dark (first pic) and he just stood there and few seconds later started walking off. Brother took a hard quarter shot to stop bull from going to water and got his femur. Went through femur, through spine, and exited opposite side from 250 yds (second picture). As far as I’m concerned, this first bullet did as good as any could’ve done breaking down the lungs, but not all bullet/gun combos can do what the second shot did. Things don’t always go as planned so it seems. Again, I’m trying to guage what happens in a similar situation (or if shot sequence was reversed) using something smaller with whatever bullet combo people are testing. So I remain open minded.

 

[woods89]

Any luck taking any animals with the 69 TMK? I'm considering hunting with a rifle that also has the 1-9 twist, and would like to know if performance is comparable.

I've killed 2 whitetails with them at 2700-2800 fps impact velocities. They make a mess, but don't expect an exit. In my case 1 did and one did not. Both deer were shot heart/lungs and death ran 50-60 yds.

 

[clperry]

11/1/23
153 yards
16 inch larue stealth
77 TMK

Not the greatest sample, as I shot him in the neck. No flinching or kicking though, and it’s always fun watching them fall through the scope.

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[rokbottom]

Has anyone used the newer 64g Winchester Silvertip? It looks similar to the XP bullet, and not the 55g Nosler Silvertip.