.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Castle Rock]

Pointy hollopoints are erratic like that, a glancing hit on the tip will bend the nose over, so no expansion and off they go on a tangent
The beauty of a tipped bullet is the tip starts the expansion

 

[cod0396]

Last night I shot a whitetail doe with my .223. The only reason I did is that I wanted to use the suppressor (hunting location very close to city limits) and my .223 is the only thing threaded for it right now.

I used a Hornady 75gr BTHP as I had experience with it on groundhogs and it showed good expansion and penetration and I had them loaded. Also some video of this bullet in ballistic gel on youtube showed good performance. Not quite as much or as rapid expansion as the 77gr TMK but pretty good:

Shot was around 30 yards. Impact velocity was probably around 2600 fps. I waited for a perfect broadside shot as this was my first time using the .223 on medium game and put it right behind the shoulder and about mid-height (my normal shot placement).

The doe bounced up into the edge of the woods then and walked up the side of the hill twitching her tail. She stood up on the side of the hill twitching her tail. At this point I am thinking I must have hit the dead tree that was framing the shot as she was still standing and had been walking up the hill not running like most deer I shoot (perhaps that was due to the suppressor). I decided I need to figure out what happened rather than wait for another deer to come out and take another shot if something is wrong with my setup and start sneaking towards where she was standing when I shot. I think I was about halfway to the spot when I heard/saw the deer fall over. She then lay on the ground and kept trying to pick her head up. It reminded me of a deer shot with a bow if you've ever watched one die - so I knew she was going to die.

I proceeded to the point of impact and there was no blood anywhere. I snuck up into the edge of the woods and she was piled against a tree dead.

Upon gutting, I found the top of one lung to be destroyed and there was food/blood etc. below the diaphragm like I had shot it in the liver. Did not inspect the liver as everything was a mess at that point. Was trying to figure out how I had done that as I had been very careful with the shot location and that she was perfectly broadside.

Upon skinning, I found that the bullet had impacted exactly where I aimed (relief) but had bounced off a rib, deflected rearward, broken the next rib, and then entered. This was very clear. You could stick you finger in the small entrance wound and feel the intact rib, a path to the rear and then the broken and a small entrance wound to the cavity. The deflection to the rear is how the bullet ended up in the liver. There was no exit wound and I did not recover the bullet. It or parts of it must be in the gut pile.

The animal is dead but I feel like I got lucky. I barely clipped the top of 1 lung with a well placed broadside shot. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected off a rib rather than breaking the rib. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected from the path through the body I chose and made a mess of the guts. Very, very, disappointed. Not that concerned about the lack of exit wound.

This is my data. I have some opinions. What do you guys think of my experience and how should I avoid repeating it? I am NOT happy with what happened. This was a well placed shot and I want 2 mushed lungs.

Pre-emptively, if you tell me a 77gr TMK would be totally different, I'm going to want an explanation how one 77gr chunk of metal will break a rib and one 75gr chunk of metal will bounce off. Perhaps use these 2 videos in your explanation:
77gr TMK:

75gr BTHP:

Well for one, you’re comparing a yaw dependent match bullet to a very reliable expanding/fragmenting bullet. Just because the bullets are both heavy .223 projectiles doesn’t mean that they are of similar construction or perform similarly in tissue. 75gr BTHP and 77gr TMKs are entirely different beasts.

Bullets can deflect upon hitting bone. That is something that is out of our control. You can’t blame a specific bullet type for deflecting on a rib when ANY bullet could have done the same.

As far as the videos you linked, gel tests aren’t the end all be all. Saying that a 77gr TMK penetrated 9” in gelatin in one instance means absolutely nothing. Gel can be useful, but what’s a more accurate indicator of a bullet’s performance - gelatin or the chest cavity of a 100-400lb mammal? We have 30 pages of the latter in this thread. I have yet to see a single account of the TMK underpenetrating or heavily deflecting on a rib so far.

 

[Formidilosus]

They are similar weight and have similar performance in ballistic gel.

No, they do not perform similarly in gel. One expands and fragments. One yaws and fragments. The first video is Clear Ballistics Gel which is NOT an indicator or terminal performance and should not be used. The AR15.com videos are generally good. However, if you watched them, how did you come to that those the Horn 75gr HPBT and 77gr TMK are similar?

If you read this thread from the start, I state multiple times that Open Tip Match bullets with relatively thick jackets (SMK, Hornady HPBT, etc.) generally kill fine yet can exhibit variable terminal performance. It is not unusual for most OTM’s to yaw and deviate from the original track after striking a barrier, even light ones. Having said that, you could probably shoot another 20-30 and not have an issue with those bullets.

As for the overall situation and deers reaction, animals shot when utilizing a suppressor often react as they do from archery. What you experienced is not unusual as far as animal reaction goes. Had you shot it unsuppressed it likely would have ran until oxygen and/or blood pressure dropped and been dead before you found it.


I’ve stated this numerous times, for general hunting with .224’s-

1). 55, 62, 64, and 75 grain Speer Gold Dots as well as identically constructed Federal Fusion including the 90gr.

2). Hornady 75 and 88gr AMAX/ELD-M (can be a bit splashy).

3). 77gr Tipped MatchKing

I did not forget any. I did not leave any out. If it’s not one of the above, it is probably because it does not perform like the above.

The 77gr TMK is currently THE .224 bullet for 223’s in soft tissue in the broadest ranges and use.

 

[Blueticker1]

This thread is great, I'm usually a large rifle guy and have been big game hunting with 7rm or larger for most of my life. After having large case bullets and components hard to find I began searching for a small rifle caliber that doesn't cost quite so much to feed so earlier in the year I had a 6mm creedmoor built as a mountain rifle.

I figured easy to shoot, lightish weight and pleasant to shoot all day long. I enjoy shooting and I shoot a lot, also fairly decent and competent with every caliber that I own. So fast forward to october of this year after putting hundreds of rounds through the rifle, I shot a mule deer at a velocity of 2232 with hammer bullets. The deer looked like he was struck by lightning and never got up. So now I am on your looking for a smaller caliber as they are fun to shoot, cheap to shoot, and make stuff just as dead as my large magnums do.

I do realize that it wasn't a 223 and I wouldn't feel undergunned on elk with it, in fact I packed it on a cow elk hunt for the entire hunt but unfortunately didn't get to test it out. The only cows I seem had calves with them. I have seen a cow elk tipped at a considerable range for most calibers with a 223 Ackley and she dropped straight down. That's another part of what got me headed in the small caliber direction.

 

[ericwh]

No, they do not perform similarly in gel. One expands and fragments. One yaws and fragments. The first video is Clear Ballistics Gel which is NOT an indicator or terminal performance and should not be used. The AR15.com videos are generally good. However, if you watched them, how did you come to that those the Horn 75gr HPBT and 77gr TMK are similar?

If you read this thread from the start, I state multiple times that Open Tip Match bullets with relatively thick jackets (SMK, Hornady HPBT, etc.) generally kill fine yet can exhibit variable terminal performance. It is not unusual for most OTM’s to yaw and deviate from the original track after striking a barrier, even light ones. Having said that, you could probably shoot another 20-30 and not have an issue with those bullets.

As for the overall situation and deers reaction, animals shot when utilizing a suppressor often react as they do from archery. What you experienced is not unusual as far as animal reaction goes. Had you shot it unsuppressed it likely would have ran until oxygen and/or blood pressure dropped and been dead before you found it.


I’ve stated this numerous times, for general hunting with .224’s-

1). 55, 62, 64, and 75 grain Speer Gold Dots as well as identically constructed Federal Fusion including the 90gr.

2). Hornady 75 and 88gr AMAX/ELD-M (can be a bit splashy).

3). 77gr Tipped MatchKing

I did not forget any. I did not leave any out. If it’s not one of the above, it is probably because it does not perform like the above.

The 77gr TMK is currently THE .224 bullet for 223’s in soft tissue in the broadest ranges and use.

Well for one, you’re comparing a yaw dependent match bullet to a very reliable expanding/fragmenting bullet. Just because the bullets are both heavy .223 projectiles doesn’t mean that they are of similar construction or perform similarly in tissue. 75gr BTHP and 77gr TMKs are entirely different beasts.

Bullets can deflect upon hitting bone. That is something that is out of our control. You can’t blame a specific bullet type for deflecting on a rib when ANY bullet could have done the same.

So verdict is - open tipped bullets yaw and because of this are more prone to deflection/path deviation in some circumstances? And the addition of a polymer tip or soft point initiations expansion rather than a folding of the nose which causes yaw and then deflection?

Or any type of bullet could've done this? I think if any type of bullet could do this then a heavier bullet/more k.e. would mitigate that risk?

What separates the soft points in list item #1 from a Hornady 55gr SP (only reason I ask is I have a few on hand). Also aren't the gold dots bonded? That seems to be generally not your flavor?

I didn't have any qualms about using a BTHP design since everyone is using Bergers for everything all over the internet and these have a more open meplat than the bergers. I guess my analysis of the videos was not detailed enough - I basically looked at penetration and size of the wound channel. Found those parameters of the 2 bullets to be at the top end of the class. I didn't pay attention to or notice yawing. I also did not know that it was not unusual for an open tipped match bullet to yaw and deviate. I thought they were expanding and fragmenting.

Basically I feel like I've missed this entire discussion about yaw.

This is the first animal I've shot with the suppressor and that was great. Easy on the ears and no anxiety about someone calling the cops (legal and safe hunting spot, just very close to town). Also interesting how the animals reacted.

 

[Castle Rock]

The construction of the Berger is a bit different, the tip has very little support from the core and on impact it collapses initiating expansion

 

[ARK_Ginger]

What separates the soft points in list item #1 from a Hornady 55gr SP (only reason I ask is I have a few on hand). Also aren't the gold dots bonded? That seems to be generally not your flavor?

They are bonded. I'm sure Form knows more specifics but I would guess they have a thinner jacket than a typical bonded bullet allowing it to expand rapidly where it needs to in the vitals while saying together. My limited experience with the 75gr gold dots have been impressive to say the least

 

[Laramie]

Out of curiosity I clicked on this thread for the first time in a few months. I can't believe it is still going...smh.

 

[Formidilosus]

So verdict is - open tipped bullets yaw and because of this are more prone to deflection/path deviation in some circumstances? And the addition of a polymer tip or soft point initiations expansion rather than a folding of the nose which causes yaw and then deflection?

Partly correct. It depends on the specific projectile. Jacket thickness, nose design, opening diameter, lead hardness, etc, etc. That’s why you can’t make any claims off of “energy”. Every bullet performs differently. You have to measure the wound channel

Or any type of bullet could've done this? I think if any type of bullet could do this then a heavier bullet/more k.e. would mitigate that risk?

At times, every bullet will do that. And fail to expand. Or over expand. Etc. Some bullets are more consistent in performance than others. On the weight... eh, not really. Straight line penetration is mainly a nose design thing. You’ll have as many issues even if you optimized straight line penetration.

What separates the soft points in list item #1 from a Hornady 55gr SP (only reason I ask is I have a few on hand).

In general, lightweight soft points in 223 will expand rapidly, and offer shallow penetration. Those 55’s will kill deer, but you can and will have issues with penetration if you kill enough.

Also aren't the gold dots bonded? That seems to be generally not your flavor?

My flavor is bullets doing what I want them to do, as consistent as possiblly across the broadest impact speeds. With that, yes I prefer plastic tip, thin jacketed match bullets and Berger VLD’s. The Gold Dots are bonded, however they are a thin jacketed bonded bullet with relatively soft lead. They are designed to maximize tissue disruption while still being barrier blind. Pretty much the exact opposite of bullets such as Barnes.

I didn't have any qualms about using a BTHP design since everyone is using Bergers for everything all over the internet and these have a more open meplat than the bergers.

Berger’s do not expand. The nose collapses after 3-5” of penetration, and then the bullet starts fragmenting. Kind of from the inside out.

I guess my analysis of the videos was not detailed enough - I basically looked at penetration and size of the wound channel. Found those parameters of the 2 bullets to be at the top end of the class. I didn't pay attention to or notice yawing. I also did not know that it was not unusual for an open tipped match bullet to yaw and deviate. I thought they were expanding and fragmenting.

Basically I feel like I've missed this entire discussion about yaw.

There’s much more to wound channels and terminal ballistics than penetration depth and width. Shape matters too. Neck length, Max TC, Max TC depth, etc.

This is the first animal I've shot with the suppressor and that was great. Easy on the ears and no anxiety about someone calling the cops (legal and safe hunting spot, just very close to town). Also interesting how the animals reacted.

Suppressors are great. I would sell a rifle to get one if I didn’t have one.

 

[Broomd]

(,223) May be illegal in our state for elk...hopefully. I'm curious, going to look into this.

 

[Formidilosus]

(,223) May be illegal in our state for elk...hopefully. I'm curious, going to look into this.

It is legal in Idaho.

 

[Broomd]

It is legal in Idaho.

Thanks for the input.
I think anyone that would shoot a mature bull or boar with that round with so many other more solid choices is an idiot, but to each his own.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for the input.
I think anyone that would shoot a mature bull or boar with that round with so many other more solid choices is an idiot, but to each his own.

In the last 29 pages of dead beasts, you got that? Why is it a bad choice?

 

[Broomd]

In the last 29 pages of dead beasts, you got that? Why is it a bad choice?

We're reading about what was recovered, not those that weren't. Can a .223 kill a deer, bear or elk? Of course. How many are shot and not recovered, that is my concern.
In 2008 my daughter shot a decent whitetail in the vitals with a .223 and that deer ran 600 yards deep into four foot high grass and was consumed by predators before we could find it the next morning. It was a good shot, I watched it happen.
You can believe that or not, it makes no difference to me.

Using a .223 on a mature elk is patently irresponsible. Would be interesting to know the elk that are lost with that round. Many guides likely wouldn't even allow it.

 

[Formidilosus]

We're reading about what was recovered, not those that weren't. Can a .223 kill a deer, bear or elk? Of course. How many are shot and not recovered, that is my concern.
In 2008 my daughter shot a decent whitetail in the vitals with a .223 and that deer ran 600 yards deep into four foot high grass and was consumed by predators before we could find it the next morning. It was a good shot, I watched it happen.
You can believe that or not, it makes no difference to me.

Using a .223 on a mature elk is patently irresponsible. Would be interesting to know the elk that are lost with that round. Many guides likely wouldn't even allow it.

That’s a straw man argument and logical fallacy. I don’t doubt that you shot a deer with a 223. Did you shoot it in the front half with a 77gr TMK and it ran 600 yards afterwards?

Do you believe that anything other than blood loss or oxygen deprivation causes death?

I’ve killed, or seen killed with me directly behind the glass, several hundred medium to big game with 223’s. 100%- that is every single one, that had blood drawn was recovered. There have been no rodeos, and only two that did not die immediately- neither of which were the fault of projectile or chambering. No gut shots, no lost game. In that same time, I have been involved in a dozen plus animals where poor shooting resulted in extremely long days and nights, and all of them- that is every single one, has been with people shooting “elk rifles”. All of those people shoot a lot, and there isn’t anyone, anywhere that would say those people aren’t skilled with a rifle.
Thing is, the total animals killed with big guns over that time is less than 25% of the amount killed with small ones, and yet have nearly all of the poor shooting and wounded animals in that entire time frame.

 

[Haney]

We're reading about what was recovered, not those that weren't. Can a .223 kill a deer, bear or elk? Of course. How many are shot and not recovered, that is my concern.
In 2008 my daughter shot a decent whitetail in the vitals with a .223 and that deer ran 600 yards deep into four foot high grass and was consumed by predators before we could find it the next morning. It was a good shot, I watched it happen.
You can believe that or not, it makes no difference to me.

Using a .223 on a mature elk is patently irresponsible. Would be interesting to know the elk that are lost with that round. Many guides likely wouldn't even allow it.

Sweet story bro... you seem to be trolling, bored ?

 

[Broomd]

Meh, looks like I hurt some 'bro' feelers around here.

Tough sh t. Use enough gun for the game involved or stay the hell home.

 

[echampion8]

I had no clue that using a 223 was legal for larger game. Here in Texas the deer are more like dogs (super small). I am on the side of bullet construction being more important than size. I see many shooters always reaching for larger calibers rather than something they can be more accurate with. A 62 grain soft point in the neck of a whitetail will drop it like a sack of potatoes.

 

[ozyclint]

Haven't read all this thread but I'd wager that more deer in Australia get shot with a .223 than any other cartridge. Standard 55gr soft points
We have a pet food and human consumption meat industry here. Plenty of deer including sambar (almost as big as elk) get shot at night under light. All head shots.

If you can shoot a ground hog you can head shoot a deer.

0% meat wasted too.

 

[jfs82]

Meh, looks like I hurt some 'bro' feelers around here.

Tough sh t. Use enough gun for the game involved or stay the hell home.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I can't use this round where I live (don't even own a 223 right now), but isn't the whole point of this thread that this particular round in this particular chamber is, indeed, enough gun for the game involved?