.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Ndbowhunter]

Last centerfire kill on ungulates for the season. 75gr bthp, 2750 launch. Bang flop.

shoulda brought more gun, then it would quarter and hike back by itself.

9 for 9 for the season, cumulatively less then 50 yards traveled total. And one that dashed had it’s heart mushed.

Still no threat of a boomer entering the stable.

 

[Castle Rock]

They are a bigger version of the 77gr. A bit deeper penetrating than ELD-M of the same class.






What animals, ranges, and angles? Did you open them up to check the full wound paths? TMK’s definitely fragment more and faster than equivalent Scenars. Exits may be larger with a Scenar on some animals/shots due to the front end fragmenting on the TMK’s earlier and leaving mostly the base to exit. Scenars actually are one of the “hardest” match bullets made. Not usual to see little to no upset for 4-8 inches of initial penetration.

Ok I looked back in my diary, and the bullet I used and was referring to was the 130 grain gamechanger, I don’t know if it is the same as a TMK but it definitely showed minimal expansion out of my 260 AI
Ranges were in the 200-300 m and shots were chest area on female chital deer, which are fairly lightly built
As a result I stopped using them for hunting.
These were from the first batch available if that makes a difference

 

[woods89]

Ok I looked back in my diary, and the bullet I used and was referring to was the 130 grain gamechanger, I don’t know if it is the same as a TMK but it definitely showed minimal expansion out of my 260 AI
Ranges were in the 200-300 m and shots were chest area on female chital deer, which are fairly lightly built
As a result I stopped using them for hunting.
These were from the first batch available if that makes a difference

Good to know. That makes sense.

The 2 deer I killed with 130 TMK definitely had significant expansion. I'd say they have the Gamechangers beat on that front.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok I looked back in my diary, and the bullet I used and was referring to was the 130 grain gamechanger, I don’t know if it is the same as a TMK but it definitely showed minimal expansion out of my 260 AI
Ranges were in the 200-300 m and shots were chest area on female chital deer, which are fairly lightly built
As a result I stopped using them for hunting.
These were from the first batch available if that makes a difference

The Gamechangers are a relatively tough bullet. Not what I look for and not the same as TMK’s. The TMK’s of all weights are generally just a bit deeper penetrating than similar weight ELD-M’s.

 

[Spoonbill]

Thought these photos would be interesting for comparison purposes. Friend shot a deer at 290 yards with a 168gr ttsx out of a 308. This is his first shot on the heart, he has to shoot it again after it got up and ran. It looked like the bullet did not expand when he cut open the heart.
Ancedotal evidence, but bullet construction seems to trump fr lbs of energy.

 

[TxxAgg]

Pig at 90 yds. He was good sized...probably 180-200#

16.5" barrel 223 with the Blackhills TMK. No exit. Ran about 120 yds.

 

[Castle Rock]

Nice pig

 

[dla]

Thought these photos would be interesting for comparison purposes. Friend shot a deer at 290 yards with a 168gr ttsx out of a 308. This is his first shot on the heart, he has to shoot it again after it got up and ran. It looked like the bullet did not expand when he cut open the heart.
Ancedotal evidence, but bullet construction seems to trump fr lbs of energy.

If the chamber is empty when the bullet hits - you get what you posted. If the chamber is full - the heart pops. Little to do with bullet construction.

 

[fightthenoise]

If the chamber is empty when the bullet hits - you get what you posted. If the chamber is full - the heart pops. Little to do with bullet construction.

Looks like the bullet passes through an atrium and a ventricle. Seems like low odds both are empty. But that’s an interesting postulation. Haven’t heard that before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Spoonbill]

If the chamber is empty when the bullet hits - you get what you posted. If the chamber is full - the heart pops. Little to do with bullet construction.

Not sure if I am following you 100% on this. Even if the bullet hit when their was little to no blood in the heart, the entry and exit would show more damage if the bullet used was designed to expand at a lower impact velocity.
I can be off on my assumptions, can you explain a little more?

 

[dla]

Not sure if I am following you 100% on this. Even if the bullet hit when their was little to no blood in the heart, the entry and exit would show more damage if the bullet used was designed to expand at a lower impact velocity.
I can be off on my assumptions, can you explain a little more?

Blood is a incompressible liquid. The heart muscle is quite flexible, but only up to rate at which it tears instead of stretching (material limit). When the chamber is full, the displacement of the bullet is transmitted to surrounding muscle tissue at the propagation velocity of blood. This mechanical movement is faster than the muscle can stretch, so it tears. That is how a heart pops.

I agree that the bullet didn't expand much, so the question should be about the velocity it was launched and how fast it would be moving after a 290yd trip. A 20" barrel would be 2600fps and 290yds later it would be doing 1900-2100 depending on BC.

 

[TxxAgg]

Shot one more pig last night and another 4 this morning with the little 77tmk. It continues to impress me. These weren't large...all around 50#. The blood trails were great.

 

[Spoonbill]

Blood is a incompressible liquid. The heart muscle is quite flexible, but only up to rate at which it tears instead of stretching (material limit). When the chamber is full, the displacement of the bullet is transmitted to surrounding muscle tissue at the propagation velocity of blood. This mechanical movement is faster than the muscle can stretch, so it tears. That is how a heart pops.

I agree that the bullet didn't expand much, so the question should be about the velocity it was launched and how fast it would be moving after a 290yd trip. A 20" barrel would be 2600fps and 290yds later it would be doing 1900-2100 depending on BC.

Thank’s for clarifying about the heart, that makes sense.

 

[SCHIZZLEAN]

I agree that the bullet didn't expand much, so the question should be about the velocity it was launched and how fast it would be moving after a 290yd trip. A 20" barrel would be 2600fps and 290yds later it would be doing 1900-2100 depending on BC.

THIS, all Day long...

 

[ericwh]

Last night I shot a whitetail doe with my .223. The only reason I did is that I wanted to use the suppressor (hunting location very close to city limits) and my .223 is the only thing threaded for it right now.

I used a Hornady 75gr BTHP as I had experience with it on groundhogs and it showed good expansion and penetration and I had them loaded. Also some video of this bullet in ballistic gel on youtube showed good performance. Not quite as much or as rapid expansion as the 77gr TMK but pretty good:

Shot was around 30 yards. Impact velocity was probably around 2600 fps. I waited for a perfect broadside shot as this was my first time using the .223 on medium game and put it right behind the shoulder and about mid-height (my normal shot placement).

The doe bounced up into the edge of the woods then and walked up the side of the hill twitching her tail. She stood up on the side of the hill twitching her tail. At this point I am thinking I must have hit the dead tree that was framing the shot as she was still standing and had been walking up the hill not running like most deer I shoot (perhaps that was due to the suppressor). I decided I need to figure out what happened rather than wait for another deer to come out and take another shot if something is wrong with my setup and start sneaking towards where she was standing when I shot. I think I was about halfway to the spot when I heard/saw the deer fall over. She then lay on the ground and kept trying to pick her head up. It reminded me of a deer shot with a bow if you've ever watched one die - so I knew she was going to die.

I proceeded to the point of impact and there was no blood anywhere. I snuck up into the edge of the woods and she was piled against a tree dead.

Upon gutting, I found the top of one lung to be destroyed and there was food/blood etc. below the diaphragm like I had shot it in the liver. Did not inspect the liver as everything was a mess at that point. Was trying to figure out how I had done that as I had been very careful with the shot location and that she was perfectly broadside.

Upon skinning, I found that the bullet had impacted exactly where I aimed (relief) but had bounced off a rib, deflected rearward, broken the next rib, and then entered. This was very clear. You could stick you finger in the small entrance wound and feel the intact rib, a path to the rear and then the broken and a small entrance wound to the cavity. The deflection to the rear is how the bullet ended up in the liver. There was no exit wound and I did not recover the bullet. It or parts of it must be in the gut pile.

The animal is dead but I feel like I got lucky. I barely clipped the top of 1 lung with a well placed broadside shot. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected off a rib rather than breaking the rib. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected from the path through the body I chose and made a mess of the guts. Very, very, disappointed. Not that concerned about the lack of exit wound.

This is my data. I have some opinions. What do you guys think of my experience and how should I avoid repeating it? I am NOT happy with what happened. This was a well placed shot and I want 2 mushed lungs.

Pre-emptively, if you tell me a 77gr TMK would be totally different, I'm going to want an explanation how one 77gr chunk of metal will break a rib and one 75gr chunk of metal will bounce off. Perhaps use these 2 videos in your explanation:
77gr TMK:

75gr BTHP:

 

[Haney]

Last night I shot a whitetail doe with my .223. The only reason I did is that I wanted to use the suppressor (hunting location very close to city limits) and my .223 is the only thing threaded for it right now.

I used a Hornady 75gr BTHP as I had experience with it on groundhogs and it showed good expansion and penetration and I had them loaded. Also some video of this bullet in ballistic gel on youtube showed good performance. Not quite as much or as rapid expansion as the 77gr TMK but pretty good:

Shot was around 30 yards. Impact velocity was probably around 2600 fps. I waited for a perfect broadside shot as this was my first time using the .223 on medium game and put it right behind the shoulder and about mid-height (my normal shot placement).

The doe bounced up into the edge of the woods then and walked up the side of the hill twitching her tail. She stood up on the side of the hill twitching her tail. At this point I am thinking I must have hit the dead tree that was framing the shot as she was still standing and had been walking up the hill not running like most deer I shoot (perhaps that was due to the suppressor). I decided I need to figure out what happened rather than wait for another deer to come out and take another shot if something is wrong with my setup and start sneaking towards where she was standing when I shot. I think I was about halfway to the spot when I heard/saw the deer fall over. She then lay on the ground and kept trying to pick her head up. It reminded me of a deer shot with a bow if you've ever watched one die - so I knew she was going to die.

I proceeded to the point of impact and there was no blood anywhere. I snuck up into the edge of the woods and she was piled against a tree dead.

Upon gutting, I found the top of one lung to be destroyed and there was food/blood etc. below the diaphragm like I had shot it in the liver. Did not inspect the liver as everything was a mess at that point. Was trying to figure out how I had done that as I had been very careful with the shot location and that she was perfectly broadside.

Upon skinning, I found that the bullet had impacted exactly where I aimed (relief) but had bounced off a rib, deflected rearward, broken the next rib, and then entered. This was very clear. You could stick you finger in the small entrance wound and feel the intact rib, a path to the rear and then the broken and a small entrance wound to the cavity. The deflection to the rear is how the bullet ended up in the liver. There was no exit wound and I did not recover the bullet. It or parts of it must be in the gut pile.

The animal is dead but I feel like I got lucky. I barely clipped the top of 1 lung with a well placed broadside shot. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected off a rib rather than breaking the rib. Very disappointed that the bullet deflected from the path through the body I chose and made a mess of the guts. Very, very, disappointed. Not that concerned about the lack of exit wound.

This is my data. I have some opinions. What do you guys think of my experience and how should I avoid repeating it? I am NOT happy with what happened. This was a well placed shot and I want 2 mushed lungs.

Pre-emptively, if you tell me a 77gr TMK would be totally different, I'm going to want an explanation how one 77gr chunk of metal will break a rib and one 75gr chunk of metal will bounce off. Perhaps use these 2 videos in your explanation:
77gr TMK:

75gr BTHP:

Please explain why you think those two bullets should perform exactly the same ?

 

[ericwh]

They are similar weight and have similar performance in ballistic gel.

 

[ericwh]

Last centerfire kill on ungulates for the season. 75gr bthp, 2750 launch. Bang flop.

shoulda brought more gun, then it would quarter and hike back by itself.

9 for 9 for the season, cumulatively less then 50 yards traveled total. And one that dashed had it’s heart mushed.

Still no threat of a boomer entering the stable.

Tagging you sir. Any input on my experience? Have you ever had any issue with the 75gr hpbt and bone?

 

[pyrotechnic]

Bullets do weird things when they hit objects. What we pay for with premium bullet designs is consistency in ballistic performance, whether that be terminal, external or both.

I haven't seen any gel tests from the 77gr TMK, but looking at this thread it seems to have earned a pretty good reputation of consistent performance on game. I don't believe the 75gr hornady has. I'm going from memory here, but I think Dr. Roberts in his testing recommended the cannalured version of that round as it provided more consistent fragmentation in bare gel, it was not recommended for use as a barrier blind round, though I doubt the TMK would do well there either.

Properly done, ballistic gel tests are useful in that they can provide us with a consistent and repeatable reference with a high correlation to performance in flesh. It won't tell you exactly what will happen with your shot, neither will the shot you took last time, because weird stuff does happen. However, a history of solid performance gives you a much higher chance of that projectile behaving as desired.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Shot one deer with the 75gr bthp. Did what it’s supposed to do.

No reason to use it again. was shooting Sage rats with it all day and didn’t feel like changing zero.