.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[PNWGATOR]

Broomd,
I’ve always respected and valued your posts and opinions as I believe they’re based on well earned experience.

I assure you, I did not start this journey or this thread whimsically.

There is merit in the projectile(s), the delivery system, the shootability and without question the terminal performance of a properly placed, properly designed projectile on deer, bear, elk and moose.

I’d encourage you to find some of the Black Hills 77TMKs and put them to work. If you’re not willing to try them on spring bear, perhaps consider an extra doe tag next fall?

In my limited first hand experience, I can tell you that the wound channels are beyond impressive and often almost too much. Plus, they’re a heck of a lot of fun to shoot!

 

[Ryan Avery]

That old saying comes to mind... “I can only explain it to you.... I can’t understand it for you.”

 

[Haney]

Meh, looks like I hurt some 'bro' feelers around here.

Tough sh t. Use enough gun for the game involved or stay the hell home.

Enough gun ? .223 is plenty if you know how to shoot. Some folks like you have no confidence, either due to lack of experience or just can't shoot for sh!t anyways.

 

[5MilesBack]

Sweet story bro... you seem to be trolling, bored ?

I haven't seen all your posts, but in the last few days every post of yours that I have seen has been a troll post. So now I'm wondering if your other ~four dozen posts are also troll posts.

 

[Lawnboi]

It was hard for me to believe as well. I grew up where it was expected to shoot a 30 something magnum, so they don’t run at all, this is deer mind you.
After the 4 I shot with the 77 tmk, there isn’t a shot I wouldn’t take with it, that I would with a 30 cal magnum inside 300 yards.

 

[Broomd]

Broomd,
I’ve always respected and valued your posts and opinions as I believe they’re based on well earned experience.

I assure you, I did not start this journey or this thread whimsically.

There is merit in the projectile(s), the delivery system, the shootability and without question the terminal performance of a properly placed, properly designed projectile on deer, bear, elk and moose.

I’d encourage you to find some of the Black Hills 77TMKs and put them to work. If you’re not willing to try them on spring bear, perhaps consider an extra doe tag next fall?

In my limited first hand experience, I can tell you that the wound channels are beyond impressive and often almost too much. Plus, they’re a heck of a lot of fun to shoot!

Gator, thanks for the direct response and fair comments.
Ya know, I've killed several moose, my last in '18, I lived i Alaska for a long time; they are tough animals. And I know that some natives will shoot them (and 'bou) with the .223, but far and away the rounds of choice are *usually* .30 caliber and magnum to boot. There's a reason for that, DRT animals, less suffering, less tracking....
I don't get why anyone, short of someone with serious recoil/shoulder issues would settle for shooting a mature moose, or elk with a .223. The .223 (77TMK notwithstanding) to the shoulder on a mature bull in either moose or elk seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Double lung? Hey, a .204 would probably suffice, but why?
The shot placement needs to be perfect, no issues, no possible brush or grass deflections. It just seems irresponsible with more ethical choices out there.

These things said, I will shoot the round and keep an open mind going forward. For deer-sized game, maybe they are the thing now.

 

[jfs82]

"Could be. Anyone that shoots a moose with a .223 is batch t"
"Double lung? Hey, a .204 would probably suffice, but why?
The shot placement needs to be perfect, no issues, no possible brush or grass deflections. It jsut seems irresponsible with more ethical choices out there."

I think this leads to the real discussion regarding 223 for larger game... Do you have the discipline to only take the shot when it's a layup and within it's limitations?

 

[Haney]

I haven't seen all your posts, but in the last few days every post of yours that I have seen has been a troll post. So now I'm wondering if your other ~four dozen posts are also troll posts.

Put me on ignore if you can't handle someone speaking their mind . Funny, I took a quick look at your history, you seem to have some troll blood in you and a real keyboard tough guy . FO

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't get why anyone, short of someone with serious recoil/shoulder issues would settle for shooting a mature moose, or elk with a .223. The .223 (77TMK notwithstanding) to the shoulder on a mature bull in either moose or elk seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Double lung? Hey, a .204 would probably suffice, but why?
The shot placement needs to be perfect, no issues, no possible brush or grass deflections. It just seems irresponsible with more ethical choices out there.

There’s a mature bull moose three pages back that Gator’s wife killed, with a 3 inch wide wound channel that went through scapula spine. Also one that utterly destroyed the thickest part of the humerus before going through ribs and then heart. Can you state what is not good enough about the wound for you? What would you rather see?

I think this leads to the real discussion regarding 223 for larger game... Do you have the discipline to only take the shot when it's a layup and within it's limitations?

Same as I asked Broomd. What are the limitations of the 77gr TMK from a 223?

 

[jfs82]

There’s a mature bull moose three pages back that Gator’s wife killed, with a 3 inch wide wound channel that went through scapula spine. Also one that utterly destroyed the thickest part of the humerus before going through ribs and then heart. Can you state what is not good enough about the wound for you? What would you rather see?



Same as I asked Broomd. What are the limitations of the 77gr TMK from a 223?

Like I mentioned in another post, I can't say for sure as I've never shot it and have no dog in this fight. But I'm always for exploring/expanding knowledge base and challenging perceived limitations. Based on the rest of this thread... I'd assume distance.

 

[Formidilosus]

Like I mentioned in another post, I can't say for sure as I've never shot it and have no dog in this fight. But I'm always for exploring/expanding knowledge base and challenging perceived limitations. Based on the rest of this thread... I'd assume distance.

Unless someone is shooting regularly past 450’ish, not really. The lower the impact velocity, the less expansion/fragmentation occurs, and the deeper the penetration. My biggest concern with shooting bone with the TMK is the how much meat loss results, not whether it will make it through it.

 

[Broomd]

"Could be. Anyone that shoots a moose with a .223 is batch t"
"Double lung? Hey, a .204 would probably suffice, but why?
The shot placement needs to be perfect, no issues, no possible brush or grass deflections. It jsut seems irresponsible with more ethical choices out there."

I think this leads to the real discussion regarding 223 for larger game... Do you have the discipline to only take the shot when it's a layup and within it's limitations?

Thanks for wording far better than I did, Jfs... and my keyboard battery is low and it's killing me with my posting.. But well stated.

An aside...I can only imagine how this thread would be received on the 24hrcampfire, --don't flame me! --A guy can wonder....

 

[jfs82]

Frankly this thread made me irritated I can't use this round for my boys first rifle when he comes of age (nonlead).

 

[Formidilosus]

This is what everyone is concerned about a bullet getting through-




I don’t think anyone has stated that a .224 bullet is the “best” choice for truly large game, you couldn’t say that about any caliber. But, neither I, nor anyone I know that has killed medium and big game with the 223/77gr TMK has walked up to an animal and wished for “more”. If you’re into gut shooting, well you do you. If your into putting it into the front half, it works fine.

 

[Broomd]

This is what everyone is concerned about a bullet getting through-
View attachment 240568

View attachment 240569

I don’t think anyone has stated that a .224 bullet is the “best” choice for truly large game, you couldn’t say that about any caliber. But, neither I, nor anyone I know that has killed medium and big game with the 223/77gr TMK has walked up to an animal and wished for “more”. If you’re into gut shooting, well you do you. If your into putting it into the front half, it works fine.

Form, you make a convincing argument...

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, you make a convincing argument...

I’m actually asking, I meant to put a question mark to that.

I generally will not state anything definitive until I’ve seen a relatively large sample size. With performance of a bullet, that would be high double digit numbers on an animal, or a lot of proper ballistics testing and 15-20 animals to confirm. I doubt that I’ll kill, or see killed a hundred moose with any specific bullet, so I can’t and have not stated anything definitive about the 223/TMK combo and moose. All I can say, is that for me, I have zero reservations about using it on moose. Having been there for a moose kill, it performed exactly as expected. Penetration depth, wound width and shape were what it has done in testing and in a lot of animals.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

It was hard for me to believe as well. I grew up where it was expected to shoot a 30 something magnum, so they don’t run at all, this is deer mind you.
After the 4 I shot with the 77 tmk, there isn’t a shot I wouldn’t take with it, that I would with a 30 cal magnum inside 300 yards.

This is what everyone is concerned about a bullet getting through-
View attachment 240568

View attachment 240569

I don’t think anyone has stated that a .224 bullet is the “best” choice for truly large game, you couldn’t say that about any caliber. But, neither I, nor anyone I know that has killed medium and big game with the 223/77gr TMK has walked up to an animal and wished for “more”. If you’re into gut shooting, well you do you. If your into putting it into the front half, it works fine.

I think there are a couple segments of bone in that shoulder that would be very concerning to me if shooting a .223. The thick spine that stands up along the middle of the scapula being one, and the knuckle where it connects to the leg being the other. On a quartering to shot I'd normally want to hit right around the point of the knuckle to make sure I got both lungs and possibly the heart.

I have no personal experience to say a .223 with a fragmenting bullet such as the TMK wouldn't consistently make it through those bones with enough energy to shred both lungs, but I have some doubts. Aside from that, I can't think of another shot I'd take with my '06 and TTSX's that wouldn't be as doable with the .223/77TMK, given the results documented here. I still prefer not to have lead in my meat, which has its own ramifications, but you can consider me mostly convinced.

 

[Formidilosus]

I think there are a couple segments of bone in that shoulder that would be very concerning to me if shooting a .223. The thick spine that stands up along the middle of the scapula being one

I think for Gator, most others, and certainly for myself, it’s not really trying to convince, as much as offer information. I for one welcome disagreement as that’s how we learn. I just look for factual, thought out arguments. The “people are stupid for using 223’s” comments aren’t factual arguments, do not foster critical discussions, and does not help in passing factual information.


To your point-The shoulder shot on the moose did penetrate the scapula spine (the ridge).


As viewing the picture, the bullet hit the scapula spine ( the meaty torn up area) below and slightly to the right of the visible hole. Penetrated the scapula, than a rib, and then the spine (backbone), breaking it.

 

[Lawnboi]

I think there are a couple segments of bone in that shoulder that would be very concerning to me if shooting a .223. The thick spine that stands up along the middle of the scapula being one, and the knuckle where it connects to the leg being the other. On a quartering to shot I'd normally want to hit right around the point of the knuckle to make sure I got both lungs and possibly the heart.

I have no personal experience to say a .223 with a fragmenting bullet such as the TMK wouldn't consistently make it through those bones with enough energy to shred both lungs, but I have some doubts. Aside from that, I can't think of another shot I'd take with my '06 and TTSX's that wouldn't be as doable with the .223/77TMK, given the results documented here. I still prefer not to have lead in my meat, which has its own ramifications, but you can consider me mostly convinced.

How about this, right through the humerus and into the vitals. Iv had much poorer performance out of much heavier bullets. This was surprising to me as well, but as I said above, there isn’t a shot I’d take with a bigger gun under 300 that I wouldn’t take with a 77tmk.

I have no concern with a deer scapula

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

@Lawnboi That is impressive damage, and right where I was talking about aiming too.