.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

[woods89]

Any luck taking any animals with the 69 TMK? I'm considering hunting with a rifle that also has the 1-9 twist, and would like to know if performance is comparable.

I've killed 2 whitetails with them at 2700-2800 fps impact velocities. They make a mess, but don't expect an exit. In my case 1 did and one did not. Both deer were shot heart/lungs and death ran 50-60 yds.

 

[clperry]

11/1/23
153 yards
16 inch larue stealth
77 TMK

Not the greatest sample, as I shot him in the neck. No flinching or kicking though, and it’s always fun watching them fall through the scope.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rokbottom]

Has anyone used the newer 64g Winchester Silvertip? It looks similar to the XP bullet, and not the 55g Nosler Silvertip.

 

[amassi]

Has anyone used the newer 64g Winchester Silvertip? It looks similar to the XP bullet, and not the 55g Nosler Silvertip.

Looks like a nickel coated deer season xp
Would probably work great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PNWGATOR]

I admit I don’t play the bullet ABCs and I’m truly here to learn. I’ve seen a dozen Canadian moose shot (performed necropsies on probably over 50) and now double digit AK/Yukon moose. A 60 inch AK bull is double the size of a great bull that has been shared in this thread. There is no doubt in my mind or no one here that a well placed 77 TMK would make fairly quick work of an AK bull or griz. What plays on my mind is what happens with a not so great shot in a situation where an animal such as grizz potentially runs off at full speed or a moose that then can jump in the swamp. And that’s why I keep returning to threads like this with an open mind to try and gauge as I’m trying to convince myself on this round for my oldest (5yo) to take his first moose and eventually black/brown bears from the stand in a couple years, but I’m not there yet. So I appreciate everyone’s input.

For reference on toughness, first pic below is a moose my brother shot this year with 375 Ruger. Jello lungs from 250 in near dark (first pic) and he just stood there and few seconds later started walking off. Brother took a hard quarter shot to stop bull from going to water and got his femur. Went through femur, through spine, and exited opposite side from 250 yds (second picture). As far as I’m concerned, this first bullet did as good as any could’ve done breaking down the lungs, but not all bullet/gun combos can do what the second shot did. Things don’t always go as planned so it seems. Again, I’m trying to guage what happens in a similar situation (or if shot sequence was reversed) using something smaller with whatever bullet combo people are testing. So I remain open minded.
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Depending on the bullet, something or nothing different would happen with the wound channel from an optimized 223.

That said, the ability to immediately spot your hit, prep, reset and deliver subsequent rounds on target is significantly different with the advantage going to the 223.

Animals often don’t die immediately and bad shots happen.

The ability to immediately correct and deliver subsequent hits on target with the desired wound channel is THE advantage.

With your example of a 250 yd lung shot from a 375 Ruger (I’ve owned one) and subsequent hard quartering shot as the bull walked away (dead on his feet from your description of the initial shot) but in a “he‘s still standing, keep shooting moment!“ as it’s getting dark…couple of thoughts.

Depending on the bullet delivered out of the 375R, the wound channel from the 77TMK may have been different (more/less destructive). That said, I assure you, a properly trained rifleman has the ability to deliver multiple rounds on target more quickly with the 223 and the wound channel and depth of penetration of a 77TMK above 1800 fps impact velocity is incredibly effective and destructive.

On everything.

Appreciate your willingness to participate in this thread with an open mind.

 

[hereinaz]

Depending on the bullet, something or nothing different would happen with the wound channel from an optimized 223.

That said, the ability to immediately spot your hit, prep, reset and deliver subsequent rounds on target is significantly different with the advantage going to the 223.

Animals often don’t die immediately and bad shots happen.

The ability to immediately correct and deliver subsequent hits on target with the desired wound channel is THE advantage.

With your example of a 250 yd lung shot from a 375 Ruger (I’ve owned one) and subsequent hard quartering shot as the bull walked away (dead on his feet from your description of the initial shot) but in a “he‘s still standing, keep shooting moment!“ as it’s getting dark…couple of thoughts.

Depending on the bullet delivered out of the 375R, the wound channel from the 77TMK may have been different (more/less destructive). That said, I assure you, a properly trained rifleman has the ability to deliver multiple rounds on target more quickly with the 223 and the wound channel and depth of penetration of a 77TMK above 1800 fps impact velocity is incredibly effective and destructive.

On everything.

Appreciate your willingness to participate in this thread with an open mind.

The follow up shot is definitely another benefit of your recommendation, especially for kids.

Sure, a 100 pound kid can shoot a 7-08, but getting on target a second time would be far easier with a .223.

I practice once or twice every range session shooting an immediate follow up shot as fast as possible and still get a solid sight picture and press the trigger cleanly. I can manage pretty fast with my 25 mag.

With recoil management and a .223 it would be a cinch to keep sending shots. I practice with my .22 for the rifle handling and trigger press, and it is fun to send them at 300 and try to get the second in the air before the first hits the target.

 

[pbroski]

I've killed grizzlies with 300 WM, 30-06, 308 Win and 300 HAM'R. Used hard bullets (ETips e.g.) and soft bullets (BTs, e.g.). None died noticeably slower than the others. Actually, the fastest kill was probably from a 168 BT from a 30-06. Broadside and no exit. Probably acted like a giant 77 TMK.

You'll kill grizzlies just fine with a 308. I plan on testing a 77 TMK on one this spring.

This is a very interesting thread! I'm looking forward to the reports of the use of .223's on grizzlies and brown bears to come in. That would really be something if they worked reliably. It would be great if all you needed was a .223 for anything in North America. Based on my own experience I'm skeptical at this point but am willing to listen and learn from others, so keep the info coming.

 

[Tahr]

I mentioned in a previous post that I thought I could post a kill shot autopsy pic using any of the 3 heavy ELD's and the TMK and no would be able to tell the difference.
Well yesterday I shot 4 deer at distances from 150 yards to 280 yards using the .223 and 52 grain Berger jacketed custom bullets (nothing special about them and probably very similar to Berger's own bullets).
All pretty much dropped on the spot or ran less than 10 yards (one was neck shot).
So...there are many bullets that will do the job. It doesn't have to be a TMK - although using them gives a bit more security and margin for error. But a bad shot is still a bad shot no matter the bullet. I think the value of this thread has not been that there is one supreme magic bullet called a TMK but that there are a number of bullets that are certainly "good enough" when launched from a .223 case.
As I said, looking at the lungs of this kill I'm sure I could have passed it off as being from a 77TMK and no one would have questioned it.

Here are pics of one of the 4, this one shot at 150 yards.
The bullet passed right through the deer (lung shot on purpose).
Left to right pic:
Entry through the ribs with shoulder and blood shot meat peeled off.
Exit through the ribs from the inside
Entry through the ribs from the inside
Lung and organ damage
Exit

 

[SouthPaw]

The follow up shot is definitely another benefit of your recommendation, especially for kids.

Especially for a lot of grown men, too. I've shot with a ton of guys/hunters who can "handle recoil" that actually have a horrible flinch, its not even funny. They shoot the properly equipped 223 and start pounding targets at distance seeing it in the scope and its like a light bulb goes off.

 

[Smenning]

The combo works!! “RSS” x 77TMK 2416FPS impact velocity. Didn’t go 5 yds.

 

[DJL2]

For those asking about the 69 TMK, 73/75/80 ELD-M...

If you've checked out Terminal Ballistic Research / Nathan Foster's stuff you will note he recommends the 69 TMK, 77 TMK, 73 ELD-M, 75 ELD-M, and 80 ELD-M for use on big game in the .223 Rem... and that's pretty much it. He is squarely in the "bring enough gun" camp, and routinely advocates for larger calibers, particularly for use at longer ranges. That he endorses the .223 Rem for use on big game at all, and with those bullets specifically, may be worth your consideration.

 

[Tahr]

For those asking about the 69 TMK, 73/75/80 ELD-M...

If you've checked out Terminal Ballistic Research / Nathan Foster's stuff you will note he recommends the 69 TMK, 77 TMK, 73 ELD-M, 75 ELD-M, and 80 ELD-M for use on big game in the .223 Rem... and that's pretty much it. He is squarely in the "bring enough gun" camp, and routinely advocates for larger calibers, particularly for use at longer ranges. That he endorses the .223 Rem for use on big game at all, and with those bullets specifically, may be worth your consideration.

You can safely assume that he has been informed by this very thread. Lots of his stuff comes off the internet. It's often easy to track his sources. Doesn't make him wrong though, or always right.

 

[Antares]

You can safely assume that he has been informed by this very thread. Lots of his stuff comes off the internet. It's often easy to track his sources. Doesn't make him wrong though, or always right.

When's he going to get over the whole "HOLD THE FOREND!" thing?

 

[HighUintas]

When's he going to get over the whole "HOLD THE FOREND!" thing?

I hold the foreend and shoot better with a firm grip on it. To each his own, though

 

[Antares]

I hold the foreend and shoot better with a firm grip on it. To each his own, though

I don't care what people do with their support hand (e.g., hold the forend, put a hand over the scope tube, use a rear bag, etc.).

I take issue with Nathan's assertation that doing anything other than holding the forend is somehow lazy and undisciplined.

 

[hereinaz]

As this is a .223 thread, I would point out that the need to hold the forend or the scope is largely eliminated. Compared to the typical .308, 30-06, 300 win mag and everything in between, the need to control the forend of a .223 because of recoil is significantly reduced if not eliminated.

Now, holding the scope or forend to prevent wobble as a part of building a stable position is another thing.

I have learned that a properly sized and configured rifle system and proper body position reduces the benefit from holding the forend on precision.

 

[TxxAgg]

77 TMK 160ish yds




77 TMK x2
Jumped him at 80ish yds. 1st shot way high near ear. 2nd one in the boiler room.

 

[DJL2]

You can safely assume that he has been informed by this very thread. Lots of his stuff comes off the internet. It's often easy to track his sources. Doesn't make him wrong though, or always right.

I would hope so! That is what this thread is about, after all. To some extent, I think that reflects what Form posted concerning projectile choices and how they have been informed by development and availability. Heavy for caliber, consistently fragmentary projectiles are arguably more available now in quality/quantity than ever. Even if folks aren't sold on .224" as the answer, getting them around to the idea that "bullets matter more than headstamps" is important - both for them as a shooter, and for the ethical harvest of the animals we hunt.

I'm also digging the 22 ARC concept... even if it's just a 22 PPC in different clothing. You can put that in the rack next to your .223 Rem for a "big" gun option ;-). I want the 22 ARC to be successful because I think it's an amazing "jack of all trades" cartridge that doesn't require someone to run something BR/PPC boutique. My hope is that it puts heavy .224" TMK / ELD-M options in more shooter's hands.

 

[Elite7]

I’ll be in the market for a 223 in the next couple months for my kids to starts using next fall. If anyone has recommendations, I am looking for a youth/ compact rifle with a threaded barrel for a suppressor. Seems hard to find the shirt length if pull and threaded barrel together on a 223.

 

[BLJ]

@Elite7

I have a Ruger American Ranch that I “think” I can cut the LOP down to compact length.
I’m guessing that the upper hole on the bottom is for a smaller (compact) recoil pad.
Hoping to try this in the next couple months.