.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Ucsdryder]

Come on down to AZ and shoot this winter! We can replicate some real world shots and have some fun.

Yes. Anyone who shoots a 22LR or 17HMR etc, they are more accurate with it across the board.

Because in real life shooting, when put to the test in large numbers using timed shots to help simulate a bit of adrenaline, the amount of guys and gals who can put the bullet out of a 300NMI or even a 6.5CM in the proper spot is shockingly low.

Again speaking about shots “not on a bench” with a moving animal that blends into terrain. When you take the user down in bullet diameter and recoil and make the rifle a simple “point and shoot and watch things die through the scope” gun the amount of “high shots” “low shots” “gut shots” and “clean misses” goes WAY down.

I do agree that 6.5CM is a great cartridge. I’ve shot variations of 6.5s since the late 90s with excellent success. Saying it’s a “better choice” than say an 80 ELDX or 88 ELDM out of 22CM I disagree with. Run the numbers on your favorite factory load 6.5CM against the bullets I just mentioned, looking at down range impact velocity, full value wind drift, etc. You’ll find that killing ability might surprise you in how close they are.

I don’t have any experience with a 75 ELDX out of a 22br. I have experience with 80 ELDX out of a 22CM and would reach for that gun over any of my current 6.5s out to around 850ish yards.

So I’ve actually killed 12 big animals since September with my 22 Creedmoor. Tracking yardage, impact velocity, shooting position, animal distance travelled after being hit. “Getting prone” where and how I’ve hunted in 5 states so far would have led to missed kills. The kill list for this season so far is below… would you say that a 300NMI would have made me more successful? If you had asked me that 10-12 years ago before I started using 6mm and 6.5mm for big game I would have said yes.

1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity: 2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.



A suppressed 7SAUM is a great killing rifle. Own one myself. Congrats to her on the success! Would she have been as successful with a .223 or .22 Creedmoor? Why not step her up to a 300NMI?

I appreciate the response. Here are some random thoughts…

1. All of your shots sound like quality hits, in that case it doesn’t matter what you shot.

2. I don’t see any follow up shots…isn’t that one of the reasons for the small caliber?

3. I’ll go on a limb here and say you aren’t the normal shooter, it probably doesn’t matter what you shoot, you’ll most likely be successful.

4. I’ve found that I look for prone shots, I can’t remember the last time I lost a shot opportunity because I wanted to shoot prone, but it wasn’t abailable.

5. I don’t think you would have not been successful on any of those kills if you had been shooting a 264 caliber-284 caliber or bigger (obviously unnecessary when you make quality shots, but not everyone is making quality shots).

To answer your last question, she absolutely could have shot my 300nmi, that TBAC ultra does stupid things to recoil and sound suppression, but she likes the 7saum, has shot it a lot, and is comfortable with it. And it goes with my whole point, why pick the extreme, you made my point unintentionally.

I was talking to a buddy that took a co worker and his 14 year old to some private property. The guy had a 300wm in a “cross” Rifle, I assume it was an sig cross. My buddy said he showed him a group that was about 4-6” at 100 and said he was ready. So the small caliber doesn’t fall on deaf ears, that guy needs a 300wm like I need a hole in the head. Where our opinions differ is that I think a 6.5cm or something else in the “middle” would be a great option for him.

 

[Billogna]

Inside of a 6 inch circle, at any range you will take the shot. I like 4 inches myself. However there is no group when shooting at deer.

I get that we are not shooting deer for groups (well some people might). But you answered my question. So 6 MOA on demand shooter should limit themselves to 100 yards and in. 3 MOA shooter 200 yards etc. Thank you.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I appreciate the response. Here are some random thoughts…

1. All of your shots sound like quality hits, in that case it doesn’t matter what you shot.

Would they have been as high of quality if I was shooting a 300NMI? Maybe, maybe not.

2. I don’t see any follow up shots…isn’t that one of the reasons for the small caliber?

It is one of the reasons, yes. Only one so far with a younger shooter required a follow up. I was honestly expecting a ton more follow up opportunities and was racked and ready with each kill listed above. None of the animals gave me an opportunity other than one doe but she was ass to me booking it for the woods and I’m not a Texan ;-)

3. I’ll go on a limb here and say you aren’t the normal shooter, it probably doesn’t matter what you shoot, you’ll most likely be successful.

I’ve found that for me personally, while being what most would consider a “high level” shooter, I am indeed more accurate and way better at reading wind related misses with 6mm and .224 versus 6.5 and above.

4. I’ve found that I look for prone shots, I can’t remember the last time I lost a shot opportunity because I wanted to shoot prone, but it wasn’t abailable.

All of my “seated” shots listed above would have been impossible prone. Tried for prone on the moose as I had hours to watch him bedded. The willows and blueberries were all way too tall. Same with the vegetation on Minnesota. All native swamp grass and plants that were way too tall for prone. The California sierras where I grew up hunting offered lots of prone opportunities, probably more similar to Colorado? In Arizona it’s too steep and rocky with tall brush and cactus to ever really get a good prone shot on big game. Can happen though still.

5. I don’t think you would have not been successful on any of those kills if you had been shooting a 264 caliber-284 caliber or bigger (obviously unnecessary when you make quality shots, but not everyone is making quality shots).

To answer your last question, she absolutely could have shot my 300nmi, that TBAC ultra does stupid things to recoil and sound suppression, but she likes the 7saum, has shot it a lot, and is comfortable with it. And it goes with my whole point, why pick the extreme, you made my point unintentionally.

I guess I don’t really think about it as an extreme anymore. I was hesitant because I had no experience in it. And had lots of folks telling me I was an idiot for trying. Yes it’s only 12 kills… Maybe the next 12 will be disasters and I’ll switch back to 6mm and 6.5mm? I have a feeling though it’s going to be like when I went from 7mm and .30 cal only for big game down to 6.5 and 6mm around 12 years ago. They’ll just keep on killing is my guess. We shall see.

I was talking to a buddy that took a co worker and his 14 year old to some private property. The guy had a 300wm in a “cross” Rifle, I assume it was an sig cross. My buddy said he showed him a group that was about 4-6” at 100 and said he was ready. So the small caliber doesn’t fall on deaf ears, that guy needs a 300wm like I need a hole in the head. Where our opinions differ is that I think a 6.5cm or something else in the “middle” would be a great option for him.

One of my buddies going back to high school is 6’8” and 450 lbs. He always called me gay for shooting my 6mms and 6.5mms even though I’d always kick his ass in comps haha. We did a practice day shooting out to 1,500 yards with various guns. He was shooting nothing smaller than 300 win mag going all the up to his 375 Cheytac. I shot the cheytac a few times with good hits, but it just sucked to shoot more than about a dozen shots.

The next morning at church he was giving me some shit for my small guns…. I said “oh yeah” and gave him a little jab in his right shoulder. It about brought him to his knees from the shoulder pain from shooting 200ish rounds the day before.

There’s always going to be a guy who needs a 300 win mag like he needs a hole in his head haha.

 

[Jake Larsen]

@mxgsfmdpx

Based on some of your comments, I’m getting the impression you instruct/own/are a part of a shooting school?

If so, how many students roughly per year are you teaching/observing? I get the feeling your opinion on small calibers is derived from more than your own personal experience hunting with them. Don’t be shy about it, I like to hear from people who have more data points to appeal to than the average or even avid hunter/shooter. I may shoot WAY more than the average hunter, but it’ll be nothing in comparison to someone who’s doing it for their job. Also, I only have time/money/access to x number of rifles/configurations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@mxgsfmdpx

Based on some of your comments, I’m getting the impression you instruct/own/are a part of a shooting school?

Used to co-own and instruct. Closed shop when we moved from our 200 acre ranch in Northern California down to Arizona full time.

If so, how many students roughly per year are you teaching/observing?

I used to compete in VHA, NBSRA, and IBS going back a real long time. Between training and practice for those events plus hosting our own versions of “3 Gun” and our own version of sort of what NRL Hunter is these days we would shoot minimum 4-5 days per week.

Pure instructing field days were sporadic and based on getting enough folks of different skill levels organized. I also partnered with a local tactical based gun store towards the end of these days in CA where we would get lots of sign ups.

We would do monthly or sometimes bi monthly shooting weekends with students. We had dedicated instructors focusing more on tactical rifle and pistol and I was I charge of general shooting and long range. Did this from 2009 until 2021. Couldn’t put a number on the number of shooters sorry. Lots.

I get the feeling your opinion on small calibers is derived from more than your own personal experience hunting with them.

This is correct. I was not the first in my immediate group to start using heavy for caliber higher BC tipped style bullets in 6mm and 6.5mm. I adopted it rather quickly though after being apart of kills with them.

Don’t be shy about it, I like to hear from people who have more data points to appeal to than the average or even avid hunter/shooter. I may shoot WAY more than the average hunter, but it’ll be nothing in comparison to someone who’s doing it for their job. Also, I only have time/money/access to x number of rifles/configurations.

I’ve mentioned a little bit of my background here over the years. I don’t like to go into too many granular details but letting folks know where I come from and what I’ve based my opinions on can be helpful I suppose. In general I’m more of a show you what I’m doing kind of guy versus talking about it. Hence the kill results posts and as of late some YouTube videos actually doing the things I speak of.

In saying all of that, in my opinion, I am in no way some sort of “expert” or an “authority” when it comes to shooting. I’ve learned a TON the last 5 years being a member here on Rokslide and trying new ideas out for myself.

 

[huntnful]

What are these “western hunting shooting scenarios” I keep hearing about?

Would you say, by your logic, that someone would shoot a 22LR better? Then, the argument becomes a balance of performance and shootability right?

In my opinion this whole thing has gone too far. It’s a balance. Shoot ability and kill ability. Does a 300nmi with 245s kill better than a 22br with 75eldx? The andwer is yes, don’t give me that bs about dead is dead. Is a 22br with 75 eldm easier to shoot accurately, the answer is yes. These are 2 “extremes”, so why can’t we agree that for “most shooters” a 6.5cm, give or take, is a great round, and should be the recommended round. The vast majority of people can shoot a suppressed 6.5cm and spot shots all day long, so why take it farther into the weeds with these baby cartridges?

Out of the 12 animals I’ve been present for that were shot this year, 1 was seated with trigger sticks and a pack under the shoulder, shot at 75 yards. The other 11 were prone, all on elk, deer, or antelope in the west. I just don’t buy into this shooting position bs, unless you’re talking about those dimwits that wander through bedding areas in the middle of the day trying to jump elk from their beds and shoot them running through the trees.

Shout out to my 13 year old daughter. All 80 pounds of her. She had a follow up shot on an elk a few weeks back that she already hit. The elk laid down in tall grass after a high shoulder shot. The only thing showing was its head. Getting closer would have risked spooking it and the shot would have been offhand due to the height of the brush. The decision was made to take the shot, then prepare for a follow up body shot if she missed. She took a prone shot off a spartan bipod and rear bag and hit it in the head at 416 yards. This was with a suppressed 7saum shooting 180eldms, which apparently is way too much gun for a lot of people on here!

Come on down to AZ and shoot this winter! We can replicate some real world shots and have some fun.

Yes. Anyone who shoots a 22LR or 17HMR etc, they are more accurate with it across the board.

Because in real life shooting, when put to the test in large numbers using timed shots to help simulate a bit of adrenaline, the amount of guys and gals who can put the bullet out of a 300NMI or even a 6.5CM in the proper spot is shockingly low.

Again speaking about shots “not on a bench” with a moving animal that blends into terrain. When you take the user down in bullet diameter and recoil and make the rifle a simple “point and shoot and watch things die through the scope” gun the amount of “high shots” “low shots” “gut shots” and “clean misses” goes WAY down.

I do agree that 6.5CM is a great cartridge. I’ve shot variations of 6.5s since the late 90s with excellent success. Saying it’s a “better choice” than say an 80 ELDX or 88 ELDM out of 22CM I disagree with. Run the numbers on your favorite factory load 6.5CM against the bullets I just mentioned, looking at down range impact velocity, full value wind drift, etc. You’ll find that killing ability might surprise you in how close they are.

I don’t have any experience with a 75 ELDX out of a 22br. I have experience with 80 ELDX out of a 22CM and would reach for that gun over any of my current 6.5s out to around 850ish yards.

So I’ve actually killed 12 big animals since September with my 22 Creedmoor. Tracking yardage, impact velocity, shooting position, animal distance travelled after being hit. “Getting prone” where and how I’ve hunted in 5 states so far would have led to missed kills. The kill list for this season so far is below… would you say that a 300NMI would have made me more successful? If you had asked me that 10-12 years ago before I started using 6mm and 6.5mm for big game I would have said yes.

1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity: 2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.



A suppressed 7SAUM is a great killing rifle. Own one myself. Congrats to her on the success! Would she have been as successful with a .223 or .22 Creedmoor? Why not step her up to a 300NMI?

This is solid ass dialogue right here. Just facts and not theories .

I kind of fall more in line with Ucs,
and maybe it is just my hunting style and the opportunities I seek out? I have not once, had a single opportunity on an animal where the end result lead me to believe I should gun down or that I was too over gunned to make the shot.

In any type of moderately supported position (and I’ve tested it with 22 CM, 6 PRC and Norma Mags), I shot them all seated supported at 600 yards. Side by side. The difference is negligible out to the yardages that I think (my personal opinion) you should be shooting to in those positions. And in really shittily supported positions you absolutely shouldn’t be dropping bombs. Again, just my opinion and I know people do it and are successful at it and a small gun probably aids more than hurts when taking those shots.

In fully supported positions, it’s really negligible at any yardage. But my guns are built right. Not out there shooting an unbraked 8lb 300 RUM or some shit.

BUT, if someone told me we were going to go shoot whitetails in tall grass and my furthest shot was going to be 200 yards and it likely won’t be prone and even mostly off hand shooting at sub 50 yards, I’m bringing a smaller caliber and even smaller platform gun in general absolutely. They can absolutely be a substantially more effective tool for certain scenarios!! And they’re 100% easier and more fun to shoot.

So the “western hunting field scenario” type thing is VERY hunter dependent, hunting style dependent and terrain dependent. It’s not a broad term IMO. I’ve killed elk in ID, CO, UT, AZ, NM and MT. And deer in all those states plus WY, NE & CA.

That’s a pretty vast array of areas and terrain. Never once have I wished I had a smaller gun or missed an opportunity because I had a bigger gun on any animal that I wanted to kill.

Can you shoot a small gun better easier? Yes absolutely.

Better enough for it to make a difference, for me personally, across 9 states and 40+ big game animals with my hunting style and the terrain I’ve been in on the animals I wanted to kill? No.

So it was just a thoughtful decision for me at the end of the day is all it was. I have a brand new 6mm that I just had built. It freaking hammers and is a blast to shoot. If I thought I would gain more hunting opportunities by bringing it, I would. I just don’t think that’s the case, as it never has been before. And I enjoy the wound channels and visible reactions I get on impact from the animals with the larger cartridges paired with frangible bullets.

 

[willfrye027]

So you are not sure where it will land when you pull the trigger?

Ever shoot in the wind, Fred? Or range the bush 20 yards beyond your actual target by mistake? There’s a huge difference between executing a good shot and the bullet hitting where you want,

when shooting stuff at longer distance, it really, really helps to see exactly where you hit…have you done but western or long range shooting?