22 ARC or 6CM? and what platform?

hereinaz said:
Run the numbers for the 223 77 tmk and the 22 arc with 88 eldm and put them up here, let's see it. I'm guessing that is is meaningful for wind and a bit less so with
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there's obviously a difference, because they are different set ups.
I cant imagine a 6yo being able to shoot the difference though.
As mentioned, i don't think the extra couple clicks of elevation or extra little .2 or whatever mil wind hold is going to make a difference to the user experience.
 
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Aussie Dan said:
there's obviously a difference, because they are different set ups.
I cant imagine a 6yo being able to shoot the difference though.
As mentioned, i don't think the extra couple clicks of elevation or extra little .2 or whatever mil wind hold is going to make a difference to the user experience.
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It’s for 6 YO plus, so more can make sense. It’s a starting point.
 
NSI said:
“Never split the difference.”

Either shoot 77 TMKs out of a 223 or step up to a 6mm (arc, GT, or creed) to enable elk hunting in WY.

You are overthinking the benefits for a 6-9 year old of 88/arc and under thinking the cost, convenience, and killing ability of 77/223.

-J
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Cost is kind of a wash. Brass is brass and bullets are bullets. Upfront, any other brass besides 223 will cost 2x, but after 6-8 firings, it kinda levels out. He won't really be able to hunt Idaho until he's 12yrs old. So, from 6yrs old to 12yrs old, it's going to be just MO whitetail, where most shots are under 200yards. I figure that gives him a lot of time to practice and become proficient at target shooting much further than that back home.

I'm wanting something that is more capable than a 223, so it can grow with his shooting and hunting capabilities. Holding wind is not exactly easy to get right and will take a lot of practice. Hence wanting to give him a cartridge that helps mitigate less than perfect wind calls, like most of us want.

10mph full value wind drift 500yds
77tmk @2700 = 21"
88eldm @2775 = 14.9"

That's a big enough difference to matter- to me, at least.

6CM was the original plan, but 22ARC caught my attention for the external ballistics and super low recoil. 22GT/CM is really looking good for running with a normal bolt face and using short action Tikka mags. 22 ARC is a bit cheaper to load for and gives him the ability to buy factory ammo when he gets older.. but maybe a bit more complicated to build a Tikka with.

I have a little bit of time to think it over. I do appreciate all feedback. Obviously, everyone's situation is a little different and everyone's expectations are different. I shoot a lot of 223 and 308, I live right next to miles and miles of BLM land. Its fun to shoot old school stuff, it really teaches you what the wind does and how far cartridges have advanced in the last 15 years.
 
Read this if you haven’t. This question has been asked 1000 times. I went through same thing too.

“I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now...

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/kids-rifle-manifesto.348812/
 
omicron1792 said:
Read this if you haven’t. This question has been asked 1000 times. I went through same thing too.

“I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now...

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/kids-rifle-manifesto.348812/
Click to expand...
The purpose of this thread was to discuss 22ARC against 6CM in terms of effective killing, recoil, and barrel life, etc... and the secondary topic was to build out a Tikka or buy a Howa Mini. The reasoning behind the cartridges was what really derailed the conversation.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in a 223rem. I know, it's not the group hive mind consensus that others have cumulatively agreed upon. That's OKAY.

Cost and recoil are close enough to not matter to me. (Which, to my understanding- that's where most people argue for a 223 rem). 22-24gr of powder for 223 rem vs 25gr-27gr of powder for 22 arc. Bullets are the same cost... So then the main cost difference boils down to brass. Hornady 223 brass is around $0.37/pc vs Hornady 22 ARC brass is around $0.87/pc. Not a big deal to me either. I'm going to be reloading these 6 or 7 times, maybe more.

The higher BC and MV of the 88 ELDM from a 22ARC is a benefit that I am willing to pay more for. If you don't think that's a big enough factor, so be it. I won't judge ya.

I think picking the cartridge happens before picking which platform to shoot it from.
 
jesco88 said:
The purpose of this thread was to discuss 22ARC against 6CM in terms of effective killing, recoil, and barrel life, etc... and the secondary topic was to build out a Tikka or buy a Howa Mini. The reasoning behind the cartridges was what really derailed the conversation.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in a 223rem. I know, it's not the group hive mind consensus that others have cumulatively agreed upon. That's OKAY.

Cost and recoil are close enough to not matter to me. (Which, to my understanding- that's where most people argue for a 223 rem). 22-24gr of powder for 223 rem vs 23-25gr of powder for 22 arc. Bullets are the same cost... So then the main cost difference boils down to brass. Hornady 223 brass is around $0.37/pc vs Hornady 22 ARC brass is around $0.87/pc. Not a big deal to me either. I'm going to be reloading these 6 or 7 times, maybe more.

The higher BC and MV of the 88 ELDM from a 22ARC is a benefit that I am willing to pay more for. If you don't think that's a big enough factor, so be it. I won't judge ya.

I think picking the cartridge happens before picking which platform to shoot it from.
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Assuming 22 ARC and 6 CM are both legal for all the game you're interested in killing, you might hop over to the Applied Ballistics WEZ calculator and see what has a higher chance of producing accurate hits in your target engagement range. You know as well as we do that the projectiles available to both cartridges are capable of excellent terminal performance.

One caveat - the difference in recoil for a juvenile shooter is going to be substantial and noticeable. Not only is the projectile weight greater for equal BC and terminal effect, the powder volume is greater. For an adult, both fall in the "highly shootable" regime so long as they are chambered in suitably equipped field rifles.

-J
 
omicron1792 said:
Read this if you haven’t. This question has been asked 1000 times. I went through same thing too.

“I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now...

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/kids-rifle-manifesto.348812/
Click to expand...
That post said it far better than I did 👏👏👏
 
jesco88 said:
The purpose of this thread was to discuss 22ARC against 6CM in terms of effective killing, recoil, and barrel life, etc... and the secondary topic was to build out a Tikka or buy a Howa Mini. The reasoning behind the cartridges was what really derailed the conversation.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in a 223rem. I know, it's not the group hive mind consensus that others have cumulatively agreed upon. That's OKAY.

Cost and recoil are close enough to not matter to me. (Which, to my understanding- that's where most people argue for a 223 rem). 22-24gr of powder for 223 rem vs 23-25gr of powder for 22 arc. Bullets are the same cost... So then the main cost difference boils down to brass. Hornady 223 brass is around $0.37/pc vs Hornady 22 ARC brass is around $0.87/pc. Not a big deal to me either. I'm going to be reloading these 6 or 7 times, maybe more.

The higher BC and MV of the 88 ELDM from a 22ARC is a benefit that I am willing to pay more for. If you don't think that's a big enough factor, so be it. I won't judge ya.

I think picking the cartridge happens before picking which platform to shoot it from.
Click to expand...
Man I’d go 22 ARC or 6 ARC. Either will be an excellent choice! For the 22 ARC, the new 88 TMK is gonna be where it’s at. Way less finicky than an 88 ELD, and just as or more deadly. Nice high BC on it. With the 6 ARC, you can run the 95 TMK, 103 ELD-X, 108 ELD-M, or the new 107 TMK. Neither will be a bad choice. I love both 22 and 6mm, so it’s hard to choose between the two
 
Or, if you want to stay with the Tikka action you already have, pick up a new takeoff Tikka 8 twist 22-250 barrel and run that with the 88 TMK.
 
jesco88 said:
The purpose of this thread was to discuss 22ARC against 6CM in terms of effective killing, recoil, and barrel life, etc... and the secondary topic was to build out a Tikka or buy a Howa Mini. The reasoning behind the cartridges was what really derailed the conversation.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in a 223rem. I know, it's not the group hive mind consensus that others have cumulatively agreed upon. That's OKAY.

Cost and recoil are close enough to not matter to me. (Which, to my understanding- that's where most people argue for a 223 rem). 22-24gr of powder for 223 rem vs 25gr-27gr of powder for 22 arc. Bullets are the same cost... So then the main cost difference boils down to brass. Hornady 223 brass is around $0.37/pc vs Hornady 22 ARC brass is around $0.87/pc. Not a big deal to me either. I'm going to be reloading these 6 or 7 times, maybe more.

The higher BC and MV of the 88 ELDM from a 22ARC is a benefit that I am willing to pay more for. If you don't think that's a big enough factor, so be it. I won't judge ya.

I think picking the cartridge happens before picking which platform to shoot it from.
Click to expand...
I have 22 ARC rifles that shoot the 88's very well. My 22" sporter barrel Howa Mini Action shoots factory Hornady ammo @ 2792 fps and my 16" Ruger American Ranch shoots the same ammo @ 2498 fps. These are different lots but expecting 2775 from an 18" barrel might be too much. I'd personally prefer to see your young one use the 22 ARC over the 6CM as the 6CM has a LOT more felt recoil (my 6CM is a 22" Ruger American Predator in a KRG Bravo Chassis) and is a sharper impulse in comparison. I shoot both rifles suppressed. Neither cartridge would be an issue for an adult but for someone who started their children shooting centerfire cartridges at a similar age, I would have used an ARC instead of the Grendel. Both of my kids have Howa Mini Actions in 6.5 Grendel that they shot (and killed lots of deer with) until they were old enough to hunt elk at which point they started shooting larger cartridges (260 Rem, 6.5CM, and 7mm-08) from Tikka rifles.

Another option since it would shoot the same bullets as the ARC and powders as the Creedmoor is the 22 GT. 150 to 200 fps faster than the 22 ARC in the same length barrel with the same bullet, no need for a special boltface as it is a 308 size boltface, feeds from a 308 sized magazine (M sized Tikka mag), and uses powders that are more temperature insensitive unlike the 22 ARC where the powders that provide the top speeds are more temperature sensitive. I have two 22 GT PBB barrels that I speced and had built in the LS Wild group buy. Looking forward to shooting them.

Jay
 
jesco88 said:
The purpose of this thread was to discuss 22ARC against 6CM in terms of effective killing, recoil, and barrel life, etc... and the secondary topic was to build out a Tikka or buy a Howa Mini. The reasoning behind the cartridges was what really derailed the conversation.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in a 223rem. I know, it's not the group hive mind consensus that others have cumulatively agreed upon. That's OKAY.

Cost and recoil are close enough to not matter to me. (Which, to my understanding- that's where most people argue for a 223 rem). 22-24gr of powder for 223 rem vs 25gr-27gr of powder for 22 arc. Bullets are the same cost... So then the main cost difference boils down to brass. Hornady 223 brass is around $0.37/pc vs Hornady 22 ARC brass is around $0.87/pc. Not a big deal to me either. I'm going to be reloading these 6 or 7 times, maybe more.

The higher BC and MV of the 88 ELDM from a 22ARC is a benefit that I am willing to pay more for. If you don't think that's a big enough factor, so be it. I won't judge ya.

I think picking the cartridge happens before picking which platform to shoot it from.
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22 ARC is the answer. Less recoil, cheaper ammo, plenty of juice.
 
The Guide said:
I have 22 ARC rifles that shoot the 88's very well. My 22" sporter barrel Howa Mini Action shoots factory Hornady ammo @ 2792 fps and my 16" Ruger American Ranch shoots the same ammo @ 2498 fps. These are different lots but expecting 2775 from an 18" barrel might be too much. I'd personally prefer to see your young one use the 22 ARC over the 6CM as the 6CM has a LOT more felt recoil (my 6CM is a 22" Ruger American Predator in a KRG Bravo Chassis) and is a sharper impulse in comparison. I shoot both rifles suppressed. Neither cartridge would be an issue for an adult but for someone who started their children shooting centerfire cartridges at a similar age, I would have used an ARC instead of the Grendel. Both of my kids have Howa Mini Actions in 6.5 Grendel that they shot (and killed lots of deer with) until they were old enough to hunt elk at which point they started shooting larger cartridges (260 Rem, 6.5CM, and 7mm-08) from Tikka rifles.

Another option since it would shoot the same bullets as the ARC and powders as the Creedmoor is the 22 GT. 150 to 200 fps faster than the 22 ARC in the same length barrel with the same bullet, no need for a special boltface as it is a 308 size boltface, feeds from a 308 sized magazine (M sized Tikka mag), and uses powders that are more temperature insensitive unlike the 22 ARC where the powders that provide the top speeds are more temperature sensitive. I have two 22 GT PBB barrels that I speced and had built in the LS Wild group buy. Looking forward to shooting them.

Jay
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Keep in mind that factory ammo is loaded to be under 55,000 psi for use in AR15s. Sierra and Hornady publish bolt gun (62,000psi) load data for the Grendel/Arc family of cartridges. With that being said, I have loaded 6.5Grendel to bolt gun load data in an AR for hunting loads. That 123SST is going 2550 from a 16” KAK AR build. It’s great for whitetail and probably even bigger, no doubt. Just don’t bother looking for the brass ;)

22GT does look interesting and solves for some inconveniences over 22ARC. But with more powder comes worse barrel life and more recoil. Factory ammo option is always a nice to have, especially if that’s his only gun to go plink with… pros and cons to everything, I suppose. But yeah, definitely leaning towards the 22ARC over the creedmoors.
 
jesco88 said:
22GT does look interesting and solves for some inconveniences over 22ARC. But with more powder comes worse barrel life and more recoil. Factory ammo option is always a nice to have, especially if that’s his only gun to go plink with… pros and cons to everything, I suppose. But yeah, definitely leaning towards the 22ARC over the creedmoors.
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Why not consider 8 twist 22-250 then? It’d work on the tikka action you already have.
 
Schmo said:
Why not consider 8 twist 22-250 then? It’d work on the tikka action you already have.
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justin davis said:
I’d go 6 creedmoor or a .243
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I personally love the idea of a fast twist 22-250 or even the 243 too... But I just think that for 308 case sizes like 6 Creed/243/22-250, it's probably more powder that what I'm looking for. That's less barrel life, more blast, etc... And from a 18" barrel, I would think they are pretty damn close to the GT cartridges in terms of velocity. It really is between 22 ARC and 22 GT. But I've got 22 ARC alpha brass sitting in my shopping cart, haha. Just finishing up a different Tikka build and then I can allocate some money towards this project :)

I do have a soft spot for the 22-250. I left a lot of meat chunks in the prairie dog towns growing up in Wyoming. That paid big dividends by time I joined the Marines, hitting 3-foot wide paper targets with iron sights at 500 yards was pretty straight forward after you've been hitting little prairie dogs at 300-400 yards.
 
jesco88 said:
I personally love the idea of a fast twist 22-250 or even the 243 too... But I just think that for 308 case sizes like 6 Creed/243/22-250, it's probably more powder that what I'm looking for. That's less barrel life, more blast, etc... And from a 18" barrel, I would think they are pretty damn close to the GT cartridges in terms of velocity. It really is between 22 ARC and 22 GT. But I've got 22 ARC alpha brass sitting in my shopping cart, haha. Just finishing up a different Tikka build and then I can allocate some money towards this project :)

I do have a soft spot for the 22-250. I left a lot of meat chunks in the prairie dog towns growing up in Wyoming. That paid big dividends by time I joined the Marines, hitting 3-foot wide paper targets with iron signs at 500 yards was pretty straight forward after you've been hitting little prairie dogs at 300-400 yards.
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My point is that you’re loving the idea of a 22GT, and I’m not knocking the GT at all. But, the 22-250 gives you at least some factory loaded ammo for practice, and can’t be that much more powder than a 22GT. And, you can pick up a new Tikka takeoff barrel for $150 or $200 that’ll shoot super well, instead of $500-$700 for an aftermarket barrel.

Edit: almost identical powder charges between the GT and the 22-250
 
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